fraquar Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) I'd simply expect more from a General presiding over that event - at least unbind their hands before chopping off their head. Let a fellow warrior at least die with a little dignity. Edited July 23, 2012 by fraquar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stemin Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I'd simply expect more from a General presiding over that event - at least unbind their hands before chopping off their head. Let a fellow warrior at least die with a little dignity. Uhm. Ok. And that doesn't seem like a security risk to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StayFrosty05 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 This is just my opinion, but I feel like roleplaying doesn't really have a point in this discussion. I mean when I argue that the Imperial side is better, that's my personal viewpoint on the matter, not what character I'm playing at the time. That would be counterproductive, IMO, to have a different say depending on your character. I mean I wouldn't go out and murder someone, but I might rp a murderer character. I'm not going to argue for the merits of killing people in a discussion though, because that's not my personal stance. Does that make sense? How I see it Stemin, is no matter our RP, our personal real life views still color the RP to some extent...whether that be siding with or playing Devils Advocate against or a little of both.....a persons choice of RP can be quite telling about that person....The game itself really does not give us enough information to firmly state position one way or another....and I am not in the mood to tangle with the 'One-eyed loyalists' at this time, it's a pointless endeavor (no, I am not referring to you.... :happy: ...)...though I do have my views and there are tells in my chosen RP....such as my strong personal interest in certain Indigenous groups and the double standards present in this game and in life in regards to fringe groups and the double standard in the right to worship Talos.....but possibly starting a sh*t storm is not my intention on this thread, so I omit certain views from discussion and assign them under the banner of RP instead.....A real life view point I will add to complete my views without treading into dangerous territory is....'There is strength in unity'....you need only to look at the reason why the bound arrows on your American Coat of Arms to see what I consider an important point....a segregated Tamriel offers so much more of an open buffet to the Thalmor than a unified Tamriel...Plus, I do personally think Ulfric is a loose cannon and potentially very dangerous if he had control of Skyrim.....Though the Imperials are certainly no beacons of righteousness either.....For me, it's just a case of who I see as the lesser of the two evils based on the very scant and incomplete info we are given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFBryan18 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 As for RP'ing the game, that's the whole point in the end, that's how I like to play the game....I play a Nord, but the history I have given him leaves him well outside any political or religious situations both past and present...clean slate him as such....he doesn't join the war for quite a while, as he see's himself as having no part in it. Though ultimately gets drawn in due to his eventual realizing that the role he has found himself in as the Dragonborn has foisted upon him more and more responsibilities and involvement towards the people of Skyrim (of Tamriel...Nirn really....Alduin wouldn't have stopped at Skyrim's borders)...and so eventually takes real notice and investigates the situation as far as the game allows (which isn't much)....resulting in him taking a stand....he ultimately joins the Imperials. This is just my opinion, but I feel like roleplaying doesn't really have a point in this discussion. I mean when I argue that the Imperial side is better, that's my personal viewpoint on the matter, not what character I'm playing at the time. That would be counterproductive, IMO, to have a different say depending on your character. I mean I wouldn't go out and murder someone, but I might rp a murderer character. I'm not going to argue for the merits of killing people in a discussion though, because that's not my personal stance. Does that make sense? Morality on issues such as murder is a matter of opinion. Whether your morals are right or wrong is simply a matter of faith. You can not prove that murder is wrong, so don't try to. Murder is wrong simply because the people have decided to make it wrong. Unfortunately, people have also decided that they are better than animals, so the animals on the planet don't share the same luxury. Thousands of species are being driven to extinction, but apparently, people should come first. Is this right? Well, this is simply a matter of perspective. Probably not right from the animals point of view. Same goes in the politics of this game. Should the Thalmor ban Talos and conquer the planet? Well, from their point of view, yes. From a Nords point of view, no. Think of America, the land of the free. History shows that the Europeans came to America and took the land from the natives. Was this right or wrong? Well, from the natives point of view it was wrong but from the settlers it was right. Perhaps it is too obvious that making people suffer is morally wrong, from most perspectives, so lets find another example. Was it right or wrong for ancient man to exterminate the Neanderthal, the Wooly Mammoth, and the Saber Tooth Cat? Well, perhaps it was kill or be killed and survival doesn't have a right or wrong answer. It is all a matter of perspective. So trying to argue that one side of the game is morally better is pointless because it is a matter of perspective and does depend on what role you are playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClonePatrol Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) I don't really see what loyalties have to do with anything here. This thread is about what's wrong with the Stormcloaks trying to seek independence and as I've stated before, they don't really have any chance of defeating the Aldmeri Dominion and by leaving the Empire while hostilities are ongoing, they damage the chances all of the Nedic (human) peoples of Tamriel have to survive. The issue when looked at as a whole is complex, but that part should be clear. The Thalmor have every intention of restarting conventional hostilities and wiping all the Nedes from the face of Tamriel. Roleplay is about seeing things as your character would and limiting their awareness and knowledge of the world around them to things they would reasonably know and think. While your character might decide to fight for the Stormcloaks because they'd see them as the better group that's all well and good, but we can look at the events in a way that the character can't. Loyalties past, present, and future are something for the character to think about (for you to think about as if you were the character) they don't have anything to do with examining the world and the events in it as a whole from the unique point of view the games offer us. The Stormcloaks are making a mistake because they're putting themselves and their loved ones at increased risk by causing more damage to the Empire than was done in the war and in gaining the temporary peace needed to try and have a better chance at winning it when it resumes. You've gotta remember that the conflict between the Empire and the Dominion is a racial conflict that's already resulted in the killing of every single non-Mer in the Summerset Isles, and who knows how many more in the now Dominion controlled lands in the south of Tamriel. If it wasn't for the threat of the Dominion, there'd be nothing wrong with their desire to self govern (however hypocritical considering their treatment of the Reachmen), but the threat is there and it needs to be handled first. The argument has been made that the Empire seems to have no intention or ability to defeat the Dominion anyway, but that shows a critical misunderstanding of military strategy and international politics. The Empire has to make it seem that way until it's ready to resume hostilities. Edited July 23, 2012 by ClonePatrol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacSuibhne Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) Morality on issues such as murder is a matter of opinion. Whether your morals are right or wrong is simply a matter of faith. You can not prove that murder is wrong, so don't try to. Murder is wrong simply because the people have decided to make it wrong. When you live in a greyscale world you never see the edge of the cliff until you've walked off of it. Every tyrant, every monster that ever lived believed that morality and right and wrong were a matters of opinion. In such a world, anything can be justified, no matter how heinous...and has been and will be, using the very same arguments that you use. Edited July 23, 2012 by MacSuibhne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFBryan18 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Morality on issues such as murder is a matter of opinion. Whether your morals are right or wrong is simply a matter of faith. You can not prove that murder is wrong, so don't try to. Murder is wrong simply because the people have decided to make it wrong. When you live in a greyscale world you never see the edge of the cliff until you've walked off of it. Every tyrant, every monster that ever lived believed that morality and right and wrong were a matters of opinion. In such a world, anything can be justified, no matter how heinous...and has been and will be, using the very same arguments that you use. I'm sorry if you do not understand what faith is, but you can not prove that a moral is right or wrong. People struggle with this everyday in issues such as whether abortion is right or wrong, or whether Capitalism is right or wrong. There is a wide range of issues that can be considered wrong from one perspective, and right from the other. There is a common saying that 10% of the people own 90% of the wealth. Is this right or wrong. Well, from the rich mans point of view, they own what they own and it would be wrong to take what is rightfully theirs, but from the point of view of starving people, why should a few people get everything while millions are allowed to suffer? Morality is based on what we believe, not based on any provable science. Perhaps someday UFO's will come and conquer this planet. Will it be right or wrong? Well, I think the Siberian Tiger would appreciate the divine intervention, but it would most likely be too late for them. One of man's biggest flaws is his belief that he is always right, even in matters of faith. If history has taught us anything at all, it's that men are usually ignorant. While I agree that murder is very wrong, this is a belief based on my opinion that life is more valuable than death and that people do not deserve to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StayFrosty05 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I don't really see what loyalties have to do with anything here. This thread is about what's wrong with the Stormcloaks trying to seek independence and as I've stated before, they don't really have any chance of defeating the Aldmeri Dominion and by leaving the Empire while hostilities are ongoing, they damage the chances all of the Nedic (human) peoples of Tamriel have to survive. The issue when looked at as a whole is complex, but that part should be clear. The Thalmor have every intention of restarting conventional hostilities and wiping all the Nedes from the face of Tamriel. Roleplay is about seeing things as your character would and limiting their awareness and knowledge of the world around them to things they would reasonably know and think. While your character might decide to fight for the Stormcloaks because they'd see them as the better group that's all well and good, but we can look at the events in a way that the character can't. Loyalties past, present, and future are something for the character to think about (for you to think about as if you were the character) they don't have anything to do with examining the world and the events in it as a whole from the unique point of view the games offer us. The Stormcloaks are making a mistake because they're putting themselves and their loved ones at increased risk by causing more damage to the Empire than was done in the war and in gaining the temporary peace needed to try and have a better chance at winning it when it resumes. You've gotta remember that the conflict between the Empire and the Dominion is a racial conflict that's already resulted in the killing of every single non-Mer in the Summerset Isles, and who knows how many more in the now Dominion controlled lands in the south of Tamriel. If it wasn't for the threat of the Dominion, there'd be nothing wrong with their desire to self govern (however hypocritical considering their treatment of the Reachmen), but the threat is there and it needs to be handled first. The argument has been made that the Empire seems to have no intention or ability to defeat the Dominion anyway, but that shows a critical misunderstanding of military strategy and international politics. The Empire has to make it seem that way until it's ready to resume hostilities. Something I wrote just a few posts earlier that I feel addresses these issues from my own perspective: "...though I do have my views and there are tells in my chosen RP....such as my strong personal interest in certain Indigenous groups and the double standards present in this game and in life in regards to fringe groups and the double standard in the right to worship Talos....." "....A real life view point I will add to complete my views without treading into dangerous territory is....'There is strength in unity'....you need only to look at the reason why the bound arrows on your American Coat of Arms to see what I consider an important point....a segregated Tamriel offers so much more of an open buffet to the Thalmor than a unified Tamriel..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StayFrosty05 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) When you live in a greyscale world you never see the edge of the cliff until you've walked off of it. Every tyrant, every monster that ever lived believed that morality and right and wrong were a matters of opinion. In such a world, anything can be justified, no matter how heinous...and has been and will be, using the very same arguments that you use. I'm sorry if you do not understand what faith is, but you can not prove that a moral is right or wrong. People struggle with this everyday in issues such as whether abortion is right or wrong, or whether Capitalism is right or wrong. There is a wide range of issues that can be considered wrong from one perspective, and right from the other. There is a common saying that 10% of the people own 90% of the wealth. Is this right or wrong. Well, from the rich mans point of view, they own what they own and it would be wrong to take what is rightfully theirs, but from the point of view of starving people, why should a few people get everything while millions are allowed to suffer? Morality is based on what we believe, not based on any provable science. Perhaps someday UFO's will come and conquer this planet. Will it be right or wrong? Well, I think the Siberian Tiger would appreciate the divine intervention, but it would most likely be too late for them. One of man's biggest flaws is his belief that he is always right, even in matters of faith. If history has taught us anything at all, it's that not only is man wrong, he is one of the most retarded creatures in the universe. Thus why Philosophy is not science....once something becomes a quantifiable fact it leaves the world of Philosophy and enters the realm of science....Moral/Ethical codes are firmly a Philosophical and in cases a Theological debate....and is firmly subject to human nature and the current societal expectation,pressure and climate of the time and place. @Bryan....you have a very firm supporter and like minded ally in me in regards to human idiocy and arrogance in our treatment of our furred, feathered, scaled, etc...friends. Edited July 23, 2012 by StayFrosty05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFBryan18 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Yea, poor animals. People take them for granted, especially the awesome big cats. Someday, they may just be in the history books, so you have to feel grateful that you can see them today. They are the perfect predators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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