Deleted4666244User Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 I was going to argue back, but I can't be bothered. Please don;t take that as a personal insult, or perceive me as being rude, I'm just tired, and was hoping for a different argument. But I will say that, even though the Empire held its own in the Great War, that was what is making me think the Empire is collapsing. Following the war, Cyrodiil would have been ruined. Its infrastructure would have been decimated, and its treasury emptied. They couldn't even pay for the Forsworn to be defeated, so they offered religious freedom. And now, they've lost Hammerfell, meaning they only have control of Cyrodiil (still experiencing infighting) Skyrim (In a civil war and that will not just end with the execution of Ulfric), High Rock (which I believe has likely reverted to its days of fighting itself) and Morrowind (worthless, and half occupied by Black Marsh). This is where my whole argument came into play. Its a textbook definition of a screwed Empire. PS. The only assumption I'm making is that the Stormcloaks have won the civil war. I'm not assuming that the player will become Emperor and save the whole world. Do you have in game evidence that they OFFERED the religious Freedom instead of agreeing to it to restore order to Markarth? You don't because there is no in-game evidence to say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorch621 Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 I was going to argue back, but I can't be bothered. Please don;t take that as a personal insult, or perceive me as being rude, I'm just tired, and was hoping for a different argument. But I will say that, even though the Empire held its own in the Great War, that was what is making me think the Empire is collapsing. Following the war, Cyrodiil would have been ruined. Its infrastructure would have been decimated, and its treasury emptied. They couldn't even pay for the Forsworn to be defeated, so they offered religious freedom. And now, they've lost Hammerfell, meaning they only have control of Cyrodiil (still experiencing infighting) Skyrim (In a civil war and that will not just end with the execution of Ulfric), High Rock (which I believe has likely reverted to its days of fighting itself) and Morrowind (worthless, and half occupied by Black Marsh). This is where my whole argument came into play. Its a textbook definition of a screwed Empire. PS. The only assumption I'm making is that the Stormcloaks have won the civil war. I'm not assuming that the player will become Emperor and save the whole world. No problem, I'm tired as well...and there all valid points, I suppose beth wanted it that way so that no matter whose side you chose it could end being successfulknowing by the time the next game comes out it will be set another hundred years or so and the whole outcome of this war will be forgotten I honestly just think Ulfric waged war on the account of the Legions steel greaves being taken away...shameful!thats what I'd wage war one dangit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RighthandofSithis Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 (edited) Scorch: I can understand your reasoning for war. WE WANT GREAVES! God that made me feel nostalgic. Maybe I'll play Morrowind... warden: Actually, The Bear of Markarth states they accepted Ulfric demands, and Ingmund also states they offered Ulfric rekligious freedom, as the Empire did not have the resources to retake the Reach themselves. Now, I'm sure if they had the money to hire other mercenaries, they would have. But instead, they had to accept Ulfric's demands. But yes, some of the game's sources are very vague, and can easily be interpreted differently. Edited August 4, 2012 by RighthandofSithis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorch621 Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 I haven't actually played morrowind (please dont kill me)back then computer gaming in SA was...kinda non existent at least in my family and circle of friendsI started with oblivion, and loved it so... wonder if Steam has got it The empire is so poor...they couldnt afford friggin pants for their legionaries anymorenow that IS a sign of a crumbling empire... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djinx187 Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 How I see the whole Markarth thing from all of the ingame content is the Empire was having talks with the Forsworn so they wouldn't have sent troops because it would have defeated the whole purpose of the talks in the first place. Giving the Forsworn would have netted the Empire the Cidna mine which would have been a huge boost to Cyrodiil after the war. With the Silver-Bloods owning it they get nothing from it but a revolution and the Silver-Bloods lose it well it is fair game to the Empire to make a deal for it with the Forsworn. Cyrodiil really doesn't care if other provinces lose land as you can tell how the whole hammerfell deal went down. Igmund got wind of what they were doing and had to go to Ulfric to raise a militia to get his land. Igmund couldn't go to the Empire because they were making a deal with the Forsworn. He couldn't hire an army because his assets were tied in to the reach and he didn't have control over it. So he accepted Ulfrics terms for allowing the free worship of talos. When he did Ulfric freed the town. Igmund says we ingame. Since he is a jarl it could be put as the Empire but it could also be the Nords of the Reach. Now the Empire is kinda pissy since their plans were blown but decided to accept Ulfric's victory but they can't accept the whole free worship of talos thing which Ulfric throws a hissy and demands that it be done. Before the Legion actually gets in to the city Thonar throws Madenach in to the prison secretly so everybody assumes he is dead. The Empire agrees to his terms so they can actually get in mostly from a politics standpoint then an actual weakness of military. Attacking a Jarl and the son of a jarl wouldn't hold to well with the other jarls and could of made Skyrim leave the Empire prematurely. "grateful" isn't scare quotes it's complete sarcasm because they were not happy at all the Empire was trying to dick Skyrim but instead got dicked. Then the Thalmor caught wind of what was going and since they are the Empire's super supreme pointy eared overlords they decided to do something about it. So the Thalmor made the Empire and Igmund cancel the deal. Which Igmund really didn't care about because he got back what he wanted in the first place his land so throwing Ulfric in prison wasn't really a bad deal for him at all(Since Ulfric was running the show in Markarth). Which is why Igmund is for the Empire he got his power and land back and literally paid nothing. Now the Silver-Bloods are with the Stormcloaks because the Empire tried to jack their mine through politics and they know it. Ulric is the reason why they have their mines still.. everybody forgets the part in the book where the Forsworn "were making overtures to be recognized by the Empire as a legitimate kingdom." Which would explain why they didn't send in the Legion at first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted4666244User Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Scorch: I can understand your reasoning for war. WE WANT GREAVES! God that made me feel nostalgic. Maybe I'll play Morrowind... warden: Actually, The Bear of Markarth states they accepted Ulfric demands, and Ingmund also states they offered Ulfric rekligious freedom, as the Empire did not have the resources to retake the Reach themselves. Now, I'm sure if they had the money to hire other mercenaries, they would have. But instead, they had to accept Ulfric's demands. But yes, some of the game's sources are very vague, and can easily be interpreted differently.both ingmund and that book are biased, trying to make the empire look like the victims, but i see your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RighthandofSithis Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 both ingmund and that book are biased, trying to make the empire look like the victims, but i see your point. Yeah, they are both biased, but they don't deny that the Empire allowed Ulfric free worship of Talos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted4666244User Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 both ingmund and that book are biased, trying to make the empire look like the victims, but i see your point. Yeah, they are both biased, but they don't deny that the Empire allowed Ulfric free worship of Talos. they did not allow though, they were forced to allow it in order to gain control of the City, then the Thalmor found out and forced them to cancel the deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RighthandofSithis Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 both ingmund and that book are biased, trying to make the empire look like the victims, but i see your point. Yeah, they are both biased, but they don't deny that the Empire allowed Ulfric free worship of Talos. they did not allow though, they were forced to allow it in order to gain control of the City, then the Thalmor found out and forced them to cancel the deal. Ehh, that's debatable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RighthandofSithis Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 both ingmund and that book are biased, trying to make the empire look like the victims, but i see your point. Yeah, they are both biased, but they don't deny that the Empire allowed Ulfric free worship of Talos. they did not allow though, they were forced to allow it in order to gain control of the City, then the Thalmor found out and forced them to cancel the deal. Ehh, that's debatable. But what I'm saying is that if they could have, they would have paid mercenaries to retake the city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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