Which ending do you usually go for and why?

[BroCop]

I really feel like the NCR is viewed much to cynically in these threads, but then a huge shipment of optimism is dumped on the Yes Man ending. Why do I always side with the NCR on a good play through?

 

It's pretty straight forward that the legion isn't going to end well. Each ending was supposed to bring order of some kind, and the legion will bring the most of it. However, it's obvious it was never built to be long term. When Caesar dies, the Legate takes command. Problem is is that, and Caesar tells you this, the Legate doesn't care for his men at all. He follows Caesar and Caesar alone. That's why he's the on-the-ground commander of a military with built-in cannon-fauder. Problem is is that under his rein the Legion slaughters anyone who dares resist. He sacks Vegas and destroys Hoover Dam. By doing this, he insures the NCR will never do more the allow Caravans to pass through some areas, but otherwise there is no point in southern Nevada anymore.

 

And though this seems like the perfect world of the Legion, with a major city of their own and a victory against the most powerful military on the planet, they will crumble. Without a consent fight, a cunning leader (or hell, one who wants more then to kill) and the symbol that was Caesar, they will fall. And then the NCR may sweep back in and annex, but there's not much to keep.

 

Now, House's ending is, in my opinion, one of the more interesting ones. By putting house in charge, you give one brilliant man with a 300 year plan the control over thousands of self-automated combat tanks that can fix themselves. The NCR will probably keep an embassy and a base or two, but they'll be no point in doing anything but watching. Under houses rule, anyone with a Securitron will be safe, no raiders or Khans or Vipers to worry about. House will have to depend on travelers from NCR to keep the economy floating, but otherwise Vegas becomes a state. The problem is is that House is the ultimate controller, and he has a plan. Anyone in his way is dead. And everyone who doesn't directly prosper from his help will likely catch the backlash.

 

Some people forget that house's plan left freeside in its current state, forced the NCR to deal with security of the desert, ignored westside, and generally has a lot of people in bad situations. Why would he care for those people all of a sudden? I feel House is the Neutral choice. Anything he does he will do right, and he has many plans for the future. But do they take the new world and its people into account?

 

Now, Yes Man, he's the wildcard, right? The courier, with or without the secuiritron army, kicks both major factions out of the mojave and basically declares him/herself leader. But, a non-direct leader.

 

The problem with this, especially without the Securitron army, is that no one can hold everything together anymore. The legion is heading east to collapse, the NCR west to lick the wounds, and now the Khans and Jackels and raiders have no standing army to stop them. The powder gangers don't have to worry about NCR sharpshooters blasting them if they cut down a few law men. How long can the Kings fight off invasion of Vegas by the fiends? The Yes Man ending sends the wasteland into anarchy without the Securitrons, and with them an awkward dictatorship by the Courier has to start.

 

Now, the NCR. The big, bad Californian's no one on the Nexus likes. Lemme explain why they are both good for the Mojave and not as bad as they seemed.

 

For starters, their nation isn't falling apart. The gun runners, sharecropper farms, hoover dam, crimson caravan, and every other major business or technology you see in the game are part of the NCR. They have a strong economy in a State with many cities, factories, Military bases and the huge breadbasket of the Sacramento Valley. All of the troopers apparall and weapons are freshly manufactured back in California, unlike any other faction, who either scavenges or steals what they wear. The NCR controls everything from at least Oregon to Baja California, and as east as Barstow and Reno. They have an economy that taps the money making wants of people, and tax those cities heavily enough to have a huge budget.

 

Now, this seems to go against what many people said, right? That the NCR is bleeding dry. That is caused because citizens and soldiers are spending money hand-over-foot in New Vegas, the Army is defending it AND caught in a major war, but they make no money here. When the NCR takes over, so do their taxes. Imagine the huge supply of caps a tax on Vegas brings in. The money stops flowing out of the NCR, and instead into the Government and pockets of casinos under NCR control. With the NCR done fighting the war, they can instate police forces to keep order in cities and keep small supplies of troops to fight off raiders and clean up south Vegas. Who knows what other buisnesses will pop up to take advantage of a bunch of new land, a huge city, electricity and a thousand other positive things under NCR control.

 

The NCR isn't perfect, sure. They're not as strong without a dictator-like ruler, and the Senate can get bogged down, but the NCR excels at letting it's people get s*** done. I feel that a steady leadership, with many possibilities to expand will lead the Mojave on to greater things.

[Talwyn224]

I really feel like the NCR is viewed much to cynically in these threads, but then a huge shipment of optimism is dumped on the Yes Man ending.

 

.....

 

Now, the NCR. The big, bad Californian's no one on the Nexus likes. Lemme explain why they are both good for the Mojave and not as bad as they seemed.

 

For starters, their nation isn't falling apart. The gun runners, sharecropper farms, hoover dam, crimson caravan, and every other major business or technology you see in the game are part of the NCR. They have a strong economy in a State with many cities, factories, Military bases and the huge breadbasket of the Sacramento Valley. All of the troopers apparall and weapons are freshly manufactured back in California, unlike any other faction, who either scavenges or steals what they wear. The NCR controls everything from at least Oregon to Baja California, and as east as Barstow and Reno. They have an economy that taps the money making wants of people, and tax those cities heavily enough to have a huge budget.

 

Now, this seems to go against what many people said, right? That the NCR is bleeding dry. That is caused because citizens and soldiers are spending money hand-over-foot in New Vegas, the Army is defending it AND caught in a major war, but they make no money here. When the NCR takes over, so do their taxes. Imagine the huge supply of caps a tax on Vegas brings in. The money stops flowing out of the NCR, and instead into the Government and pockets of casinos under NCR control. With the NCR done fighting the war, they can instate police forces to keep order in cities and keep small supplies of troops to fight off raiders and clean up south Vegas. Who knows what other buisnesses will pop up to take advantage of a bunch of new land, a huge city, electricity and a thousand other positive things under NCR control.

 

The NCR isn't perfect, sure. They're not as strong without a dictator-like ruler, and the Senate can get bogged down, but the NCR excels at letting it's people get s*** done. I feel that a steady leadership, with many possibilities to expand will lead the Mojave on to greater things.

 

 

This was a good post however I think it overlooks a lot of the problems that plague the NCR.

 

It was actually your last paragraph that I have to strongly disagree with BroCop and here is why:

 

 

To be honest, the NCR aren't getting the sh*t done and that's the whole problem you are confronted with when the game starts. Throughout the entire vanilla game, right from the very start and through to the end, we constantly come across blatant examples of how the NCR has over reached itself in the Mojave, has let down its soldiers and citizens and has been held in check or stalemate for 5 years by a bunch tribals wearing old football armour. General "wait n' see" Oliver should be taken out & shot for military incompetence as he's totally made a SNAFU of the situation in the Mojave. His strategy of a war of attrition has demonstrably failed as the Legion has secured positions across the Colorado and are just waiting for the right moment to attack. Meanwhile morale in the NCR forces is at an all time low, camps like Forlorn Hope are well named because the top brass have left them there to die. Inadequate forces, inadequate supplies, no clear plan all lead to inevitable defeat. Even the head of the NCR Rangers, Chief Hanlon, has had to resort to inserting fake messages within the command communications net in order to get somethings happening. And if the best commander on the ground has no confidence in the situation, well that's pretty damming evidence wouldn't you say?

 

We hear from Cass that the caravans in NCR territory have very little protection yet are constantly being shaken down by corrupt NCR officers etc for protection money yet in Legion territory caravans move safely and have no fear of being "taxed" or attacked while there. And then there is the problem of big money interests crushing the ordinary guy as we see in the quest "Beyond the Beef" where Heck Gunderson has used his power and influence to muscle in on Walter Pheebles ranch and holdings. Next there's the conversation you have with Marcus who states that the NCr will eventually get overthrown by an internal revolt - "Might not happen overnight. Might take a few decades. But it'll happen. Basic human nature - greed, ambition, jealousy - will see to it." So even a long lived mutant can see the writing on the wall for the NCR.

 

Then there are the observations of Ulysses who says both the Bear & the Bull are doomed to die and I think he is dead right there. He made a study of history and his conclusion was that both Legion & NCR are modelled on societies that have FAILED and have passed into history and that the only way forward is to create something new. Helping the NCR win will not achieve that.

 

At least with YesMan there is a chance for New Vegas to make something of its own future because it's pretty obvious that both Legion & the NCR are both going to fall apart. The other thing regarding YesMan's victory is that he isn't human but he will do what is best for New Vegas and not make the same "human" mistakes like the NCR or Legion will.

 

And finally if the NCR are so good at "getting the sh*t" done, why the hell do they need a lone courier to save their asses on so many levels? I think President Eden answers this question perfectly as to how did the NCR's leaders allowed the most powerful nation on the western side of America to fail so spectacularly in the Mojave?

 

"The answer is really quite simple. Incompetence. Incompetence at the highest echelons of power. We put our trust, our faith, in halfwits. Our intrepid leaders had everything they wanted; power, wealth, prestige. It made them lazy, America. Oh yes, and laziness breeds stupidity."

[TKDBoy1889]

I agree with the above post. NCR has simply overstretched it's boundaries. Even Boone said it pissed him off that Legion slavers could operate in NCR territory without resistance. "We got greedy, overstretched, now our own territory isn't secure."

 

If the NCR took control of New Vegas, there is no way they'd be able to supply the manpower to effectively protect all that new land. As it is, so many NCR outposts you visit talk about being underpowered. Heck, even the Mojave outpost, the closest NCR outpost to the heart of NCR lands, can't afford troops to keep the roads clean. They are given only enough soldiers to maintain a standing force, and sending troops anywhere would violate their order to maintain a standing force. As Ranger Ghost said "F*cking Mojave's going to hell, and all I can do is sit and watch.". Most of the lower commanding officers are more efficient at their jobs, and are frustrated with the incompetency of the higher brass. Even the Arms Merchant at 188 said that Vegas was bleeding the NCR dry and making them spend funds on several problems while Caesar was biding his time and preparing to strike. She was right when she said the NCR should have already crossed the Colorado and stuck a boot up Caesar's a**.

 

After the first Battle of Hoover Dam, the troops should have been sent to finish the Legion off, or to keep the pressure up. But General Oliver just kept everything still. Thus, the Legion recuperated and is already carrying out tactical missions in NCR territory. they destroyed Camp Searchlight and Nipton on their own. NCR doesn't do jack squat without sending the courier in to help out.

 

Despite all this, NCR is still my second favorite ending because the Legion are just terrible/cruel/hypocrites/based on a fraud and House is taking things backwards, is too obsessed with the past to lead New Vegas to any kind of future. At least NCR is civilized, free, and the majority of their citizens are good people. It's the top leaders that are incompetent. But Yes Man presents the path for something new, something different, in a manner that would be more effective.

[Dan3345]

Talwyn I think you may be missing the point BroCop was trying to make. Point is NCR isn't perfect but they are a better option then the others. What can we assume if anything the courier is going to do to secure trade routes? And the legion? If you play as a female courier I am kind of pissed Caesar will even speak to you in front of his Praetorians. Of the two I believe Ulysses was most right with the Legion. They will devour themselves, whether sooner or later it will happen. NCR is only guilty of overextending itself, even if they lost the Mojave, they still have most of California and Oregon, and some reachings into Arizona. But it isn't just about land, the point is they need new terrain to allow their economy to grow and expand. The goal of the NCR presidents starting with I believe Tandi is to not just make use of stimpacks, but to make them. Right now almost everything in the wasteland across the entire US (from what we know) is found and put to use, but imagine how much good could be done if they were actually manufacturing such goods.

 

There is a big fear brought up by Arcade that someday they won't be able to raid hospitals anymore for medicines. NCR is taking land in a desperate search for working factories, and hospitals, buildings, power plants etc. They don't just want to build civilization they want to save it. And in my opinion although they don't do the best jobs and they make mistakes, but they are the best of four evils in my opinion.

[Talwyn224]

@Dan3345 -

 

No I don't believe I've missed BroCop's point at all but rather I disagree with it entirely. The NCR isn't evil per se but the actions of their leaders are at best incompetent and motivated by self interest and ego building and not on behalf of the people their are supposed to represent. And that's why I think they do not deserve victory. Why reward incompetence and condone criminal acts because that's pretty much what the leadership of the NCR are guilty of by the time the game starts.

 

Yes the NCR makes things, it is rebuilding society/civilasation and it was all going well under Tandi but she died and human nature, greed, ambition, jealousy as Marcus puts it, take over and things start to go wrong for the NCR. President Kimble is the epitomy of this in his war in the Mojave. Here is an except of his character bio from The Vault:

 

"As a general in the NCR army he was widely praised and gained popular support for his hardline attitude toward the various wasteland tribes when compared against the approach of his predecessors, but has drawn criticism as president for an autocratic style and single minded focus on the Mojave, to the detriment of NCR morale and resources. He has campaigned vigorously for further contributions militarily and financially to the Mojave campaign - so much so that the NCR's stake in Mojave has been viewed as Kimball's war.

 

Kimball's personality is accurately summarized by the term "war hawk". Supported by Colonel Cassandra Moore and General Lee Oliver, President Kimball firmly believes in expanding the NCR and bringing new territories into the fold by any means necessary, be it Hoover Dam or Baja. This stance, as well as disregard for losses, is one of the greatest issues Chief Hanlon, architect of the first victory at the Dam, has with the President."

 

Kimble has shown that he is more concerned with military conquest than building on the gains that the NCR have already made. He's prepared to callously send thousands of poorly trained and under-equipped NCR soldier citizens to their meaningless deaths just so he can win HIS war. To me that's just as evil as what Caesar is doing and perhaps it's even worse. Caesar doesn't pretend to be noble, virtuous and wrap himself in the flag plus the shroud of truth justice, democracy but Kimble does which makes him a liar and a hypocrite.

 

Then there is General Lee Oliver - a military idiot and butcher par excellance . If you don't believe me, have a read what J.E Sawyer said of him [Gen. Oliver] when asked about his character flaws:

 

General Oliver doesn't seem to grasp basic military strategy. What real life persons were an inspiration for his character? Would you agree Oliver's the main cause the war is going badly for the NCR?

He's a mishmash of various aggressive, block-headed military commanders. Generals LeMay and Patton are obvious examples, though completely without the forethought of those two men.

 

http://www.falloutwiki.com/Lee_Oliver

 

Here is a man who has no regard for the lives of the men he spends like casino chips and yet he's the one in charge of NCR forces in the Mojave and that's only because his Kimble's creature. So apart from incompetence we've got nepotism rather than merit deciding on who should be the person in charge of the NCR's army in the Mojave and we all know that should be Chief Hanlon.

 

I appreciate why people see the NCR as being a force for good and can see why they think helping the NCR win is the best ending but I don't think that they are seeing the big picture here and are ignoring all the warning signs that are screaming out at the Courier throughout the entire game that the NCR has over-reached itself, is being led by dangerously incompetent self serving fools who only have their own personal interests at heart and care nothing for the Mojave or its people but only what it gives them.

 

I rate Mr House over the NCR as at least he'll get things done and would probably take it over once it collapses due to internal troubles [if you let House win].

 

I never support Legion though.

 

So in order of preference for what is best for the people and the Mojave I say it's YesMan, then Mr House followed by NCR and Legion at the last.

 

I rest my case.

 

[edit]

 

I also think though that the ordinary citizens and soldiers of the NCR are for the most part decent people just trying to get along and survive and I do believe that it is good to help them deal with the problems they are confronted with. The NCR soldiers are being let down badly and it's probably for the best that they all go home alive rather than continue the war against the Legion. The NCR needs to sort out its own house and deal with it's own problems before it can start to try and impose itself on the rest of the wastelands.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Talwyn224

[geckonator9]

I agree with Brocop's point about the NCR being better than Yes-Man, but would like to add something to that. Am I the only one who noticed Yes-Man's little throwaway line about "becoming more assertive"? I had gone for the NCR path my first time through but then decided that an independent Vegas couldn't be that bad and reloaded a save to side with Yes-Man. The problem that makes the NCR my favorite of the four is that one little line by Yes-Man after dealing with General Oliver. For all we know, the Mojave will look like the Terminator movies after Yes-Man wakes up. Only with the evil kill-bots have little screens with smiley faces on them and always shouting encouraging lines while ruthlessly enslaving or exterminating everyone. So, to recap: Your choices are a bureaucracy with crippling taxes and incompetent politicians, a fascist empire of tribals that want to recreate a civilization that has been dead for 2,000 years, a rich genius brain in a computer who wants total control through manipulation, and an anarchist AI that will most likely go Skynet on everybody after a year or so of reprogramming himself. Have fun!

[Talwyn224]

@geckonator9 -

 

YesMan does not become a "Skynet" at all after he uploads the hidden code files he finds in Mr House's mainframe.

This is a common misconception that many people appear to have come to.

 

This is what happens [from The Vault Fallout wiki]:

 

Effects of the player's actions

 

After the assault on Hoover Dam, Yes Man informs you that he found pieces of codes within Mr. House's mainframe that "change [his] personality" and says he will seem to be offline for a little while until his personality change is complete. Thus, his new personality would be more assertive. This does not imply that he is going to rule Vegas as a benevolent artificial overlord; rather, he is simply not going to obey the commands of every random person he happens to meet. Only the Courier will be able to order him

 

http://www.falloutwiki.com/Yes_Man

 

 

This is backed up by a direct question to J.E Sawyer over at Formspring:

 

Q - "Then what is the implication of YesMan's statement]? That seems to be what everyone reads into it-- Yes Man reprogramming himself to be more 'assertive' is kind of ominous!"

 

J.E Sawyer - "That he will not just roll over for the next person to walk up to him in the Courier's absence. I.e. he will become a somewhat-independent steward instead of a powerful tool for any random person to use for nefarious purposes."

 

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/248305799686784685

 

Besides, as the old saying goes, "If you want something done right, do it yourself" Thus an independent New Vegas is the best ending as it's up to you [the courier] to shape New Vegas' future and no one else.

 

Go YesMan! :thumbsup:

[geckonator9]

I was kind of coming to that conclusion myself, but thought that the line was an attempt to give Yes-Man last minute jolt of villainy after the game set him up as the developer's favorite to win the war. However, I still think the people of the Mojave end up happier and safer under the NCR. Despite this, my favorite quest between "No Gods, No Masters" and "Eureka" is the former, solely for the joy that comes from seeing General Oliver being thrown off the Dam :biggrin:

Edit: Not to mention the monotony of clearing out the dam room by room for the NCR

 

So yeah, the game is very morally gray about the 4 factions, which is a major credit to the team at Obsidian. I say that the writers for Obsidian should be absorbed into the main Bethesda team and be used for Fallout 4. Just imagine what they could do with Bethesda's budget and time table! It really is staggering that the game was as good as it was with the time Obsidian had to work, with only 2 months to plan, 10 to develop, and only one month for debugging.

Edited August 8, 2012 by geckonator9

[Talwyn224]

 

Despite this, my favorite quest between "No Gods, No Masters" and "Eureka" is the former, solely for the joy that comes from seeing General Oliver being thrown off the Dam :biggrin:

Edit: Not to mention the monotony of clearing out the dam room by room for the NCR

 

 

 

That was one of my favourite cut scenes in the entire game and General Oliver deserved it. I was being patient with the a$$hole but he still was belligerent and so when the option in the dialogue came up, he did his audition for the high dive. As the senior NCR field commander, Oliver has the blood of thousands on his hands due to his total incompetence at military matters and as such, getting thrown from the Hoover Dam is a fitting end to that clown.

 

I agree too in that the room to room fighting, if you take the NCR path, gets a bit tiresome but at least on the 1st run through was exciting enough for me.

 

I think Obsidian should stay separate from Bethesda. Why ruin a good thing? I also think Obsidian should be commissioned to create Fallout 4 as they'd do a damned sight better job than Bethesda.

[geckonator9]

Well, keep in mind that FO4 will most likely use the Creation Engine used for Skyrim, which Bethesda will be better with. If they don't merge then Bethesda should design the gameplay and environments while Obsidian oversees the writing.