Forum attitude

[Stemin]

No, I never said that, what a strange assertion.

 

Well, you did say:

 

And if TES Games are still selling to the PC crowd years down the line, then they are obviously keeping the franchise going, due to the modding community, simple as that.

 

"keeping the franchise going" implies that without the PC crowd they would not keep going. I'm going to have to downright disagree with that idea. So if that wasn't what you meant, then I'm glad you clarified.

 

Do modders generate extra revenue? Certainly. A significant amount? That's debatable. Certainly adding Steamworks support was done, because it disguises their attempted pirate blocking with something that is an asset to the people who play their games and at little cost to themselves.

 

Criticism and refusing to accept things at face value happens all the time. If folks merely swallow everything that Beth churns out, bugs and all, and just accept it, then not only does that qualify them as a fanboi, but it deprives Beth of the chance to improve areas that are needed - if they aren't given the message that something is a problem, how will they know? Or, if they aren't given a poke into clarifying their position, how will WE know the truth of things?

 

Criticism and just plain complaining are two different things. People seem to have forgotten over the last decade there's a difference.

 

The fact that someone would choose to defend a game they enjoy despite the bugs does not in my opinion qualify them as a "fanboy" and it's pretty offensive that you can't tell the difference.

 

For example, Skyrim. It's buggy as hell. But I have 1500 hours into it. What right do I have to complain? At $60, that's like what? 25 cents an hour? Where else can you get a deal like that? And I'm not done playing.

 

Also, I happen to have spent some time programming on MUDs when I was in high school. It's essentially the same as a TES game, without the graphics and more story. People act like its easy for a team of 90 people to debug a game that sold 3.5 million copies the first week. 90 people aren't going to find the problems that 3.5 million people will. And trust me. Spend some time on a more juvenile board like gamefaqs and listen to some of the dumb things people do. "I killed everyone in Morthal and now I can't do the quests! Bethesda sucks! Wah." Really?

 

It's no different than any other field. It's time vs. money. Go step on a construction site and look at all the things that get hidden behind the walls, up in the ceiling etc. Is it because these tradesmen have no pride? No, it's because of the cold hard fact that if they took the time to fix it right, it would cost the company more money for something that isn't going to be seen and result in them getting laid off or worse.

 

This is the world we live in. Learn to enjoy what you have because it ain't getting any better.

 

Ginny is correct here. If it weren't for the modding crowd, Morrowind, and Oblivion would have been relegated to the bargain bin long ago. The fact that they can still sell these games at full price (not so much so for morrowind) today, speaks volumes on the value of the modding crowd.

 

Where are you seeing them at full price? Even at $20, that was certainly not the opening price of either game.

 

And for every person who buys Morrowind because they played Skyrim and wanted to try some mods, there's a console player who wanted to pickup Morrowind on XBox just to try it.

 

 

This is really far away from my original topic.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Stemin

[ginnyfizz]

Saying that they keep the franchise going is hardly the same thing as saying that Beth would go bankrupt without them. A better phrase perhaps would be "Keep interest in the franchise going." AS I said in another thread, console gamers (my nephew is one)are often (But not always) younger and will soon move on to the next big thing that all their peer group are raving about. I said not always by the way...

 

And it's totally pointless accepting craptacular goods and services, accepting second best all the time. Thank you, I am quite old enough to have learned that you do not always get what you want, but I pick my battles and usually win. Ask my car insurance company for example, they got so scared of the voice on the end of the phone saying "HOW MUCH???? You are kidding...take...business...elsewhere..." that they desisted from trying to rip me off every renewal time as they do to everyone else. It's not much different for game companies, if the fan base whinge long and loud enough, they get....werewolves and Nords with beards. That's what happened with Skyrim after all.

[Stemin]

Saying that they keep the franchise going is hardly the same thing as saying that Beth would go bankrupt without them. A better phrase perhaps would be "Keep interest in the franchise going." AS I said in another thread, console gamers (my nephew is one)are often (But not always) younger and will soon move on to the next big thing that all their peer group are raving about. I said not always by the way...

Like I said, this has nothing to do with the point of my original post. I see no reason to carry on this conversation.

 

And it's totally pointless accepting craptacular goods and services, accepting second best all the time. Thank you, I am quite old enough to have learned that you do not always get what you want, but I pick my battles and usually win. Ask my car insurance company for example, they got so scared of the voice on the end of the phone saying "HOW MUCH???? You are kidding...take...business...elsewhere..." that they desisted from trying to rip me off every renewal time as they do to everyone else. It's not much different for game companies, if the fan base whinge long and loud enough, they get....werewolves and Nords with beards. That's what happened with Skyrim after all.

 

What you have described is not an example of criticism, but an example of bullying.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Stemin

[ginnyfizz]

No, it's hard bargaining and making them customer driven, be serious, how can it be possible for one person to bully a giant insurance/any other kind of company? (The company I speak of are part of the RBS Group and hence deserve a pummelling.) The bullying comes from large companies, be they gaming companies or insurance companies or whatever, expecting the customers to take a lot of mushroom compost lying down and just keep shelling out their hard earned cash. Certainly in Britain you would be nuts not to do a bit of the take business elsewhere threat stunting to get a bargain on the insurance front. Nevertheless, if enough of the little people do like I do and threaten to take their business elsewhere/boycott products it can pull up a company in their tracks, if for no other reason than the fact that bad rep can affect the bottom line.

 

Bethesda can shut critical threads down on their official forums all they like, but they will never be able to bury their heads in the sand (or up any other orifice)while ever there are other forums, like here, where a critical poke in the eye (whether merited or not) can be administered.

 

 

(.....Just wait for the fireworks when they try to jack up my premium on the grounds that EU says they are not allowed to charge women less any more even though they have less write off prangs than boy racers because it's sexist....)(Predicts reply equating to "Aw nuts!")[/end offtopic]

[HeyYou]

I would dispute the premise that steam adds any value whatsoever to the gaming experience. That's all just a matter of perspective. Steam isn't DRM, in the sense of combating piracy, Steams sole purpose is to kill off the secondary market. Which it does just fine. We shall see how the recent ruling in Europe will affect that.

[Stemin]

No, it's hard bargaining and making them customer driven, be serious, how can it be possible for one person to bully a giant insurance/any other kind of company?

 

You're not bullying the insurance company, you're bullying the customer service rep on the other end of the phone whose sole job is to keep a customer using anything within her power. She's just doing her job.

 

The same way you claim you're performing a service by complaining about Bethesda, but the reality is, very few, if anyone here is in a position to change anything at Bethesda and whether or not they even check the Nexus is debatable (I would assume they do, but assuming is pretty stupid). The only thing you're really doing is creating conflict on a message board with someone who might actually enjoy the game. And the fact that you don't doesn't, IMO, make you better than them, so why should they be ranted at?

 

The problem with assuming that voicing your opinion makes a difference is that your voice has to be heard by someone that matters and in a manner that convinces them.

[JimboUK]

No, it's hard bargaining and making them customer driven, be serious, how can it be possible for one person to bully a giant insurance/any other kind of company?

 

You're not bullying the insurance company, you're bullying the customer service rep on the other end of the phone whose sole job is to keep a customer using anything within her power. She's just doing her job.

 

The same way you claim you're performing a service by complaining about Bethesda, but the reality is, very few, if anyone here is in a position to change anything at Bethesda and whether or not they even check the Nexus is debatable (I would assume they do, but assuming is pretty stupid). The only thing you're really doing is creating conflict on a message board with someone who might actually enjoy the game. And the fact that you don't doesn't, IMO, make you better than them, so why should they be ranted at?

 

The problem with assuming that voicing your opinion makes a difference is that your voice has to be heard by someone that matters and in a manner that convinces them.

 

Getting the best deal possible isn't bullying, threatening to take your custom elsewhere is common. I've had insurance, internet and my mobile phone bill all reduced by threatening to take my money to another company. The fact that they can reduce the charge rather suggests they were overcharging me in the first place.

 

As for forums, people have differing opinions, opinions they're entitled to voice as long as they do it within the rules. Imagine how boring the world would be if we all liked the same things and agreed on everything. Conflict can easily be avoided by not replying, it takes more than one to have an argument.

[DaedalusMachina]

Um.... every game company that has existed since forever has only been in it for the profit. Any that are not, die. Reality.

 

And no, they weren't overcharging you, their rates are, as all of them, arbitrary to a point. If you don't waste the insurance companies money by being a d***head on the road, they probably will give you a better deal (because hey! you're not a terrible investment).

[ginnyfizz]

I don't, I have never had an insurance claim (any accidents I have had have been folks running into me or a roof falling on my car so not paid out by my insurance paid out by the other dudes...) so there is no reason to suggest that they mess with my premiums due to my being a prat on the roads. They see what they can get away with, which in my case they find, isn't much. If I had made a lot of claims due to accidents that were my fault, or had a conviction for a motoring offence, I'd expect the premium to go up. Seeing as I haven't...I don't, and won't accept lame excuses.

 

And by the way, Stemin, it's pretty sexist to assume the rep on the other end of the phone is female (about 50-50 these days), and also you are making a sweeping assumption about bullying. I just take no s***, but I do it politely "terribly sorry mate/luv, but that is not acceptable, now you know that over on comparethemeerkat.com X Company are offering it at £Y..." Got me a £200 quid reduction last time...

 

Now this is all analagous to the situation with giving Bethesda and other companies (but on here mainly Bethesda) a caning on forums. Insurance companies give way because they know that the public talk to one another and the fact that they try to take the mick is common knowledge. Gaming companies will ultimately HAVE to care about the bad rep because it is going to hit them where it hurts, in sales and profits. Isn't there something in another thread on here about where the howls of protest from gamers may be doing just that to Ubisoft, for example? Now news of gaming companies dubious tactics/shoddy performance of products will often be highlighted and the news set on foot by...posting on internet forums like this one. For example, on here people will report things like issues with the notorious Bethesda patches. Who can forget the backward flying dragons?

 

Lying supine and being an unquestioning fanperson never got anyone anywhere. Saying something may or may not work, but saying nothing DEFINITELY won't.

[Stemin]

Getting the best deal possible isn't bullying, threatening to take your custom elsewhere is common. I've had insurance, internet and my mobile phone bill all reduced by threatening to take my money to another company. The fact that they can reduce the charge rather suggests they were overcharging me in the first place.

 

Except she didn't give an example of calling around for better rates and using the system, she described calling and harassing the same rep until they dropped their rates.

 

As for forums, people have differing opinions, opinions they're entitled to voice as long as they do it within the rules. Imagine how boring the world would be if we all liked the same things and agreed on everything. Conflict can easily be avoided by not replying, it takes more than one to have an argument.

 

And like I said when I started this thread, and the same thing applies to what I said in response to your comment about getting the best possible deal. There's a difference between being critical and being downright negative.

 

It's one thing to state an opinion as open for debate. It's quite another to shove your negativity down someone's throat and make it a contest as if they're wrong for not having a negative opinion about something.

 

And by the way, Stemin, it's pretty sexist to assume the rep on the other end of the phone is female (about 50-50 these days), and also you are making a sweeping assumption about bullying. I just take no s***, but I do it politely "terribly sorry mate/luv, but that is not acceptable, now you know that over on comparethemeerkat.com X Company are offering it at £Y..." Got me a £200 quid reduction last time...

 

No, it's not sexist, it's another example of you creating conflict where its unnecessary. I could have used a male or female rep and the example wouldn't have changed. I chose female and you label it as sexist without cause. The ONLY reason I picked a female rep is because I was addressing you, who I presume to be female since you go by "Ginny" and presume to be the "queen of nexus". Really it didn't matter who I used.

 

Now this is all analagous to the situation with giving Bethesda and other companies (but on here mainly Bethesda) a caning on forums. Insurance companies give way because they know that the public talk to one another and the fact that they try to take the mick is common knowledge. Gaming companies will ultimately HAVE to care about the bad rep because it is going to hit them where it hurts, in sales and profits. Isn't there something in another thread on here about where the howls of protest from gamers may be doing just that to Ubisoft, for example? Now news of gaming companies dubious tactics/shoddy performance of products will often be highlighted and the news set on foot by...posting on internet forums like this one. For example, on here people will report things like issues with the notorious Bethesda patches. Who can forget the backward flying dragons?

 

Lying supine and being an unquestioning fanperson never got anyone anywhere. Saying something may or may not work, but saying nothing DEFINITELY won't.

 

The bottom line is, a company either needs your business (as an individual) or not. Bethesda sold 3.5 million copies of Skyrim the first week. A huge bug across the entire platform such as the backwards dragon doesn't equate to one person complaining because she thinks the game was dumbed down (or whatever your reason is).

 

If someone needs your business, they're going to make an effort to keep you (to a point), but if they're doing well (as Bethesda is) approaching them disrespectfully isn't getting you anywhere. And like I said. Doing this on a forum where it's debatable that they even read it or not isn't guaranteed to be productive in the first place. That's like standing in a mall and shouting at people about how bad the game is. The only difference is you're within your peer group here. You may or may not get people to share your opinion and in the long run you might effect sales, but that's all really a long shot. The numbers state that people are enjoying the game, whether it's because of mods or not. Mods aren't going away and neither is Bethesda.