Dawnguard is out on steam!

[eltucu]

Try being a 3d artist with a tight time limit for a project.

You suddently feel it should cost 40 USD.

Try to be a coder with a tight time limit for a project, you suddenly feel it should be illegal. Or do you think that all of Beth team are 3D artists?

 

You don't make 20hs of gameplay by making textures and meshes alone. Hell, you could make 20hs of gameplay with clever scripting and good writing alone.

Edited August 4, 2012 by eltucu

[Matth85]

Try being a 3d artist with a tight time limit for a project.

You suddently feel it should cost 40 USD.

Try to be a coder with a tight time limit for a project, you suddenly feel it should be illegal.

 

You don't make 20hs of gameplay by making textures and meshes alone. Hell, you could make 20hs of gameplay with clever scripting and good writing alone.

 

You are right at one point. However, if you got 20 houres of writing and scripts, which dawnguard got, I would most likely agree it's worth no more than 15-20 USD. However, add the tons of new models into it, and paying 20 is not a problem. Not considering you got people willing to pay us artists up to 20 USD per armor set we make.

 

Now, on Turbosquid, a site it is normal for game companies to buy models, and for artist to sell models, a good quality model will be at 20-50 USD. A single model.

 

My point is: The work done in the DLC is way worth more than 20 USD, so I feel it is wrong to complain about it. Heck, I'd pay the 20 just for the models, as I know myself the time it would take to make it. I am not sure how much time it would take to code these things, and how much you would value that, but surely the time spent on it is more than a dinner and a paying for the parking?

Edited August 4, 2012 by Matth85

[xaliqen]

I guess everyone complaining about the price thinks software developers work for free.

No, i'm actually trying to get a Computer Science (Computing Licentiate specifically) degree and be a software developer, and I still think it should be priced 15 USD at most.

 

Try being a 3d artist with a tight time limit for a project.

You suddently feel it should cost 40 USD.

 

For 20 houres of gameplay, added tons of new models and textures, together with new animations and fun stuff to play with, I struggle to see the difference in paying 15, or 20, USD.

Then again, I suspect the price will drop to 10-15 in not too long, and then drop to 5-10 for any steam deals it is included with. Of course, as long as Bethesda doesn't milk the DLC too much. Which wouldn't come as a suprise either -- as Bethesda likes milking.

 

If I felt a significant portion of the cost actually went to those who developed the game, I might be more inclined to support a higher price-point.

 

As it is, almost all of the money for games from larger publishers go to the publisher. Take a look at New Vegas, ZeniMax pocketed a pretty penny for that and Obsidian didn't even get a bonus because their Metacritic score wasn't high enough (what nonsense).

 

Long story short, I see a lot of publishers out there wanting to jack the price up, and only seldom do I see a developer prioritizing that.

 

I've worked on enough projects to know the people who do the work rarely get paid what they deserve, but it's usually because an undeserving executive team pockets most of the profits. I don't think paying more money for DLC is going to encourage better content if all of the extra money just lines the pockets of a Wall Street baron.

 

I don't know how BethSoft divides their profits, it may be more equitable than elsewhere, but I'm cynical.

Edited August 4, 2012 by xaliqen

[Matth85]

I guess everyone complaining about the price thinks software developers work for free.

No, i'm actually trying to get a Computer Science (Computing Licentiate specifically) degree and be a software developer, and I still think it should be priced 15 USD at most.

 

Try being a 3d artist with a tight time limit for a project.

You suddently feel it should cost 40 USD.

 

For 20 houres of gameplay, added tons of new models and textures, together with new animations and fun stuff to play with, I struggle to see the difference in paying 15, or 20, USD.

Then again, I suspect the price will drop to 10-15 in not too long, and then drop to 5-10 for any steam deals it is included with. Of course, as long as Bethesda doesn't milk the DLC too much. Which wouldn't come as a suprise either -- as Bethesda likes milking.

 

If I felt a significant portion of the cost actually went to those who developed the game, I might be more inclined for a higher price-point.

 

As it is, almost all of the money for games from larger publishers go to the publisher. Take a look at New Vegas, ZeniMax pocketed a pretty penny for that and Obsidian didn't even get a bonus because their Metacritic score wasn't high enough (what nonsense).

 

Long story short, I see a lot of publishers out there wanting to jack the price up, and only seldom do I see a developer prioritizing that.

 

I've worked on enough projects to know the people who do the work rarely get paid what they deserve, but it's usually because an undeserving executive team pockets most of the profits. I don't think paying more money for DLC is going to encourage better content if all of the extra money just lines the pockets of a Wall Street baron.

 

Which is something the developers know before they work on a project. They don't get paid for their work. Only freelance developers get paid for what they do.

However, we don't help with the problem by not paying at all, meaning the hard working developers get nothing at all.

 

That said, I wouldn't mind developers getting more credits. Heck, I can't name a single proffesional 3d artist or coder that have been developing any of the TES games. The only name I know off, is Todd. Which, I admit, is sad. I would not mind for the ability to pay money to pot for the developers only.

[eltucu]

My point is: The work done in the DLC is way worth more than 20 USD, so I feel it is wrong to complain about it.

I know, custom design is expensive, but you forget that Beth isn't licencing the content to one single dude, they have more than 8 million customers. The licence of the content may cost such ammount, but Beth isnt targeting a single customer. The profit margins are waaaaay bigger than that. That's something we all should notice when talking about pricing.

 

If Skyrim costs 60 usd to 70usd at launch (depending on edition/and/or platform) and gave me almost 200hs of content, you surely cant expect i'm willing to spend 1/3 of that for 1/10 of equivalent content. When 'I paid the 70 usd for Skyrim I paid for the content, along the engine, the middeware, etc. When i'm paying for a DLC, i'm paying for EXTRA things that have such developments already given.

I don't know how BethSoft divides their profits, it may be more equitable than elsewhere, but I'm cynical.

Me too. Remember that Bethesda Softworks (publisher) denied a bonus for obsidian because New Vegas didnt reached 85 (or it was 90?) points in Metacritic, it reached 84 if im not mistaken. While to me it looks like an overall better game than FO3 (though to be fair, you have to transform an isometric RPG into a 1rst person RPG first for such thing to happen, which is something Bethesda Games Studios did first with FO3).

[Stemin]

If I felt a significant portion of the cost actually went to those who developed the game, I might be more inclined to support a higher price-point.

 

Of course the money isn't going directly into the developer's pocket, but they're still getting paid. It always floors me when the younger crowd acts like Bethesda is just hoarding money when they have exclusivity deals and such. The number one cost for coming up with a product is almost ALWAYS payroll. By the time you pay the hourly (or salaried) costs and then pay for insurance costs, and social security, any type of pension plans, workman's comp insurance, etc, you can be paying up to 100% more than a person's hourly wage, and they have to keep these people going to make a product.

 

Yeah, I'm not naive enough to say that Bethesda isn't making some type of profit. That's why they're in business. But it's not like all the money they make off of Skyrim just sits in a vault somewhere for the CEO to bathe in.

 

Much of what they make from Skyrim will be used to pay salaries while developing the next game when the only money coming in is people buying the GotY at a significant discount who weren't in a hurry to jump in and play the game.

 

And now the parent company is developing Elder Scrolls online, which at some point will be a regular earner (as I'm guessing it will require a fee similar to WoW to play), but in the meantime, that game is being developed with only the income from other games, with no previous versions of TES online to use as a budget. Also there's that other game they announced shortly before or after Dawnguard.

 

Companies are always developing something, and that money has to come from somewhere. If you're not developing something, then you're just watching the money dwindle away.

 

It's also quite laughable to me that people complain about the price here of all places where the PC platform is the most expensive version of the game for the sheer cost of keeping your PC upgarded versus just buying a console.

Edited August 4, 2012 by Stemin

[Matth85]

I know, custom design is expensive, but you forget that Beth isn't licencing the content to one single dude, they have more than 8 million customers. The licence of the content may cost such ammount, but Beth isnt targeting a single customer. The profit margins are waaaaay bigger than that. That's something we all should notice when talking about pricing.

I never meant for you to take the pricing litteraly. My point was simple: The models alone are worth more than the the price of the DLC, if a single person would buy it. Add the coding and writing, a price tag of 20 USD is nothing.

 

If Skyrim costs 60 usd to 70usd at launch (depending on edition/and/or platform) and gave me almost 200hs of content, you surely cant expect i'm willing to spend 1/3 of that for 1/10 of equivalent content. When 'I paid the 70 usd for Skyrim I paid for the content, along the engine, the middeware, etc. When i'm paying for a DLC, i'm paying for EXTRA things that have such developments already given.

You got Skyrim as a bargain, nothing else. Expecting to get the same from DLCs and/or other games is fooling yourself.

Everybody knows DLCs are simply piece of mods that developers make to milk money, or to add content that had to be cut from the game due to early release. Expecting it to be cheap, at least when it contains enough stuff for it to be a potentional, albeit a very bad, new game.

 

Let me compare:

Skyrim, I paid 50 USD for it. I clocked in 205 houres as of now, and I am not even about half done with the game. I have yet to do anything in half the guilds, nor the main quest.

Dawnguard, I paid 20 USD for it. I've clocked in 5 houres now, am about halfway through my vampire playthrough, and I plan to run through as a member of dawnguard. Then I plan to get some models done, and get another 10 houres as a crossbow character. I.E. I can most likely have 30 houres of enjoyement, or more, out of the DLC.

 

Now, to compare.

I bought F.E.A.R 1 for under 10 USD. I have gone through at the hardest difficulty, blind, as close to 100% as possible. I've clocked in 7 houres.

I bought F.E.A.R 3 for 20 USD. I have gone through twice, 100% as good as possible. I have clocked in 10 houres.

I bought Prototype 2 for 50 USD. I have 100%-ed it twice, last on the hardest difficulty. I've played 26 houres, where about 5 is me jumping around for no reason.

 

That is the 3 last last games I bought and completed.

 

So, the average is 20 USD for 10 houres of gameplay. Some games gives 20 houres for the same price, but then you either play a game on sale or an outdated game. Like playing Borderlands, or what-not.

In my eyes, the DLC is priced just right. While Skyrim itself is underpriced by a good 10 times, for me.

Edited August 4, 2012 by Matth85

[gsmanners]

Sheesh. People complaining about people who complain. :rolleyes:

 

Skyrim is too damn big. That's my complaint. I can't figure out what to do next. It's so overwhelming. Who has time for a DLC? I still haven't done even 10% of everything I could do in the vanilla game, and that's after over 100 hours of playing. If I played Dragon Age Origins for 100 hours, I'd be sick to death of it (and that's a really great big game, too).

 

Let's compare Skyrim to a game from the 1980s. Okay? Try comparing Ms. Pacman to Skyrim. Adjust the cost of that game to today's prices and it would probably be about $200. Would you play Ms. Pacman for $200? I don't think so. What we have here is an embarrassment of riches. Rich content and rich with bugs. (And I'm not sure whether the bugs are more interesting than the game.)

 

And add the thousand or so hours of play time you can add with mods. :tongue:

[Stemin]

Sheesh. People complaining about people who complain. :rolleyes:

 

Skyrim is too damn big. That's my complaint. I can't figure out what to do next. It's so overwhelming. Who has time for a DLC? I still haven't done even 10% of everything I could do in the vanilla game, and that's after over 100 hours of playing.

 

I don't think it's too big, but I agree with your sentiment about seeing 10% of the game in 100 hours. Unfortunately most of the crowd here will have modded their game before they get to 100 hours and don't even see what the vanilla has to offer. They've already decided it wasn't good enough after 50 hours.

[JimboUK]

It's nothing to do with can't afford it, it whether an individual thinks it's worth the money.

 

And like I said in my original post, these people clearly think software developers don't deserve to be paid.

 

With the amount of hours since the announcement of Dawnguard (which means, btw, they were working on it before that if they had enough content to announce), it's no wonder they had to sign an exclusive with Microsoft, because otherwise they'd probably take a loss on the dlc.

 

Not everyone is the same, we all have our own opinions and we're all entitled to voice them as long as we don't break the rules.

 

You're not entitled to _anything_. This message board is not a democracy. It's a dictatorship, run by Dark0ne, period. Maybe that's not the nicest way to put it, but that's the bottom line. You don't get any clearer than that when you sign a ToS that says you can't disagree with the moderators or admins.

 

You don't have any "rights." You're here at his sufferance the same as the rest of us.

 

Self-entitlement is ruining society.

 

Has anŷone suggested they shouldn't be paid? As a customer what a product cost to make is irrelevant, the question is have they produced something I want at a price I'm willing to pay, for you they have, for me they haven't. As for what is acceptable on this board don't lecture those who have been here for years, you were told in that thread you started what this site is, it's not a fan site, it's a modding site. We've always been free to voice our opinions, sadly Skyrim seems to have bought with it a number of people who can't accept that not everyone shares their opinion.