Hand holding...

[Vagrant0]

The game you want, you probably won't find, even among indie developers. Once game developers realized that nobody looked at the manuals any more they started putting in mandatory tutorials. Once game developers started catering towards the other 86% of casual gamers, games started having reminders and direction indicators because relatively few people can stay oriented in complicated settings or remember the dozens of objectives from one sitting to the next (often more than a day, and with work and life (things that usually need to be remembered more) distracting them). Games stopped being horribly unforgiving because processing and technology no longer made it necessary to stack all the cards against the player in ridiculous fashion in order to have some element of difficulty, and was usually only difficult when paired with various bugs or fussy game mechanics (see Contra, Castlevania, Super Ghouls and Ghosts, Ninja Gaiden (all three for NES)).

 

Those games don't get made any more because there are relatively few modern gamers who would put up with a game where none of the controls or affects are explained, where none of the objectives are laid out, or where things in the game have a potential to glitch out causing you to have to restart from the beginning. Arguably, those games can't even be made in an age where you have 3d graphics due to how the 3d engine either works reliably or the game becomes unplayable. You don't have opponents suddenly respawning because you moved too far in one direction, or who can stay completely immune or even regenerate just because they moved offscreen. With improved memory you can have waypoints and saves so that you don't have to run back through the entire game just because you couldn't sit there for 20+ hours straight (without the hardware frying), and shorter games just didn't have the duration you wanted. As almost every game has a wiki, walkthrough, ect at this point there really aren't any games left where whole aspects of the game are left to mystery.

 

 

Most of what makes EvE difficult is the playerbase. It is a game where the other players can scam eachother, take advantage of newbies, and kill anyone who explores into controlled space. If you get with a decent corporation, the game isn't that hard since you usually get some help learning the ropes or can travel in groups. It has a playerbase that is mostly unique and one which would not work with most other games.

 

 

My suggestions for things that might come close would be:

 

Binding of Issac: each playthrough is randomly generated, most of what things do isn't readily explained, and you can even accidentally get items that make your life harder.

 

Mabinogi: I know what you're thinking, but I would actually say that many of the game mechanics are ones which you might like, once you get past the cutesy aesthetic. Sure, it still has some tutorial stages, and quest destinations are still pointed out for you... But going from point A to point B really only accounts for a small part of the game. The challenging part is the game combat mechanics. The game works on a sort of rock-paper-scissors sort of combat style where you charge a skill or attack based on what sort of behavior an enemy is exhibiting, with almost everything else resulting in death. 1 on 1 it takes some amount of practice to get the timing down... When going against more than 1 at a time, it can become quite frantic since you're having to counter or otherwise delay other opponents than those you can properly deal with. Even if flawless play wasn't a challenge, the fact that just about everything that makes you stronger makes it so that raising certain aspects can become impossible or even more difficult. This makes the game reasonably unforgiving since you have to plan out what skills you want to raise when and what factor it plays on other skills. The downside is that some aspects of the game can become exceedingly grindy, especially when you start wanting to max those skills that get more difficult as you improve since it becomes this thing that you have to finish with in order to raise anything else.

[brokenergy]

Yes! Binding of Issac is really fun.

[JimboUK]

Morrowind, it's old but can be bought up to date with mods.

[Vagrant0]

Oh, and Borderlands seems to get slightly harder after the first play-through or two. I suspect that around level 55+ things get even more challenging since you can no longer get that edge from having good equipment since almost all material levels top out at level 48. I only just started my second playthrough, but noticed that scags and other areas where things spawn from the surroundings seem to spawn more, and possibly respawn quicker.

[RitualBlack]

King Pin: Life of Crime tends to be unforgiving (not sure about difficulties under hard mode). It is a fun older fps game without any hand holding. There is no health regain and you have to use money you picked up off of fallen enemies to buy health packs. If you make a wrong move and go a bit to close to the first possible enemy he beats you to death with a pipe :blink: . Easily the hardest fps game I have played.

 

Three action games I would recommend are Blade of Darkness, Die by the Sword and Rune. If you like puzzle style games the Oddworld series (except strangers wrath) is good. Strangers Wrath is also good but its not the same.

 

I will also give a +1 to The Binding of Issac.

[Iv000]

I second Morrowind.

 

Also, maybe the STALKER series? (Shadow of Chernobyl mostly)

There's not much hand-holding in those and it's pretty challenging on higher difficulties if you ask me.

 

Others I can recommend are the Thief series and maybe Mount and Blade: Warband?

 

But yeah, not much challenging games these days. I've been searching for those as well, I hope Dark Souls will be worth the wait.

 

Binding of Isaac is ok as well, though personally I wouldn't recommend it. Idk, I just dislike it.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Iv000

[gamevsreality]

The Void can be really unforgiving.

If you do a mistake and don't realise it until later you may have to restart the game if you don't have any earlier saves.

The game is hard by default so someone made a medium and easy difficulty patch for the game.

[Delikatessen]

Alright, thanks for the suggestions.

 

@Vagrant0: The reason I said EVE wasn't worth my time is precisely because it takes way too long to be good at anything. There's also the advantage-taking by high-leveled players and scams like you mentioned, but there's also racketeering and smartbombing. I haven't tried a second playthrough of Borderlands yet, so maybe I'll start again using Lilith. And I'm not all that picky about how games look or what the theme is. Just look at my avatar :D. I'll look into Mabinogi.

 

@Iv000: I have STALKER: Shadow of Chernobyl, but I just couldn't get into it. It's interesting and challenging, but I just couldn't pick it up. I'll look into Mount and Blade, but I tried Thief and didn't really like it. Binding of Isaac looks interesting, though.

 

@gamevsreality: From the reviews it's gotten, it actually looks pretty awesome. I'll look for some gameplay videos and decide if I want it or not.

Edited August 4, 2012 by Delikatessen

[Vagrant0]

And I'm not all that picky about how games look or what the theme is. Just look at my avatar :D. I'll look into Mabinogi.

On second thought, it looks like the combat system was revamped significantly with one of the more recent patches, so I cannot actually comment on the actual depth of the system or how it works in its current state.

 

Still might be worth looking into though.

[Lutine]

And I'm not all that picky about how games look or what the theme is. Just look at my avatar :D. I'll look into Mabinogi.

On second thought, it looks like the combat system was revamped significantly with one of the more recent patches, so I cannot actually comment on the actual depth of the system or how it works in its current state.

 

Still might be worth looking into though.

 

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