Anyone else disappointed with the Stormcloak questline?

[fifteenspades]

Would you have a link to where it describes Kyne creating the nords? or something along the lines~

Because everything i can find it all points towards the same idea that nords come from Atmora. That Ysgrammor wasn't the first person to migrate from Atmora that nords were doing it long long before, he was just one of the most recognized. And that after the Sunndering when other races started to settle tamriel including Atmorians that they had to live in peace with the Elves who were already there. Just the Atmorians of Skyrim were different and refused to live with them. ( abeit they were slaughtered )

 

And "The Return" described in the book Songs of the Return. is talking about when the surviving nords returned to skyrim after being slaughtered on the Night of Tears. with the 500 companions. Not sure how that book relates to what you are saying.

[sajuukkhar9000]

Children of the Sky : "Nords consider themselves to be the children of the sky. They call Skyrim the Throat of the World, because it is where the sky exhaled on the land and formed them."

 

Pocket Guide to The Empire : "Throat of the World: This is the highest mountain in Skyrim, and the highest in Tamriel aside from Vvardenfell in Morrowind. The Nords believe men were formed on this mountain when the sky breathed onto the land. Hence the Song of Return refers not only to Ysgramor's return to Tamriel after the destruction of Saarthal, but to the Nords' return to what they believe was their original homeland."

 

Varieties of Faith in the Empire : "Kyne (Kiss At the End): Nordic Goddess of the Storm. Widow of Shor and favored god of warriors. She is often called the Mother of Men.

 

Decree of Monument : "Let it stand in honor of those who had the strength and spirit to accept Skyrim's Offer "untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the Empire except as writ in the Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply, and henceforth let no Man or Mer say that the Sons and Daughters of Kyne are without mercy or honor."

 

More Kyne/Children of the sky stuff

 

 

High Hrothgar plaque

 

With roaring Tongues, the Sky-Children conquer
Founding the First Empire with Sword and Voice
Whilst the Dragons withdrew from this World

Yngol and the Sea Ghosts : "In his terrible grief, Ysgramor slew a dozen dozen beasts and burned them in honor of his fallen kinsman. A barrow-hill was dug in the Atmoran tradition, and Yngol was laid to rest with rites and honors among his clansmen far below the rocky face of Hsaarik Head, the first Children of the Sky to perish in Tamriel."

 

Gelebor in Dawnguard makes mention of the Nord's belief that Skyrim is their ancestral home.

Dovahkiin: Who were your people?

Gelebor: We were once a wealthy and prosperous society that occupied a portion of Skyrim. Unfortunately, we were constantly at war with the Nords who claimed the land as their ancestral home.

 

The Greybeards call the mountain Kynareth's.

Dovahkiin: Who are you? What is this place?

Arngier: We are the Greybeards, followers of the Way of the Voice. You stand in High Hrothgar, on the slopes of Kynareth's sacred mountain. Here we commune with the voice of the sky, and strive to achieve balance between our inner and outer selves.

 

Froki also calls Kyne "the mother of men".

Dovahkiin: Tell me about Kyne.
Froki: Those sycophants in the Temple would call her Kynareth. Just a pale shadow of the truth, like all the Temple Divines. Kyne! Blessed Warrior-Wife. Shor's widow, sacred to any true Nord hunter. She's the mother of men and beasts, and her veil is the storm.

 

Felldir the Old makes mention of Kyne's connection to the hawk.
"Hold, Alduin on the Wing! Sister Hawk, grant us your sacred breath to make this contract heard!"

 

 

Edited August 6, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[BloodrendX001]

Ah, so the Hammerfell thing has been debated before. I didn't know, I only very rarely decide to get into Civil War arguments, and even then it's usually just a single comment or two. The history between Hammerfell and Skyrim I didn't consider, nor the light they place Sep/Shor/Lorkhan in. I'm of the opinion that debating such things as who Skyrim really belongs to is pointless, as it reaches no conclusion. Essentially, where just drawing from what could be legends based (loosely) in some real phenomena. Only way we can know is if we rock up to Kynareth/Kyne herself and ask if she did indeed make the Nords. Buut, well.... If we're to take it this way she's kinda dead.

[fifteenspades]

Kyne being the mother of men doesn't mean just nords. it means all men.

 

I get what you are saying and if i was a nord trying to figure this stuff out and saw all this "evidence" i would probably start to think like you, however all of this is just what the Nords beleifs are.

None of it is actual proof ;o but thank you for linking all of them anyways ^^

[sajuukkhar9000]

Kyne being the mother of men doesn't mean just nords. it means all men.

Well yes, all the races of men, except the Redguards, are known to be related to each other.

 

None of it is actual proof

I see no reason to doubt Nu-Hatta's claim that all life began on Tamirel, especially given what we know about Aldmeris being nonexistent, and all the Nordic legends of being created on Tamirel. He is also the primary source of tower-knowledge, which the game's are built upon.

Edited August 6, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[Lachdonin]

Also bear in mind that 'proof' is a dubious term in the real world, let alone in the Elder Scrolls. We have no proof of the laws of gravity, what we have instead is a base of evidence which supports the theory. It is possible (though highly, extremely, absurdly unlikely) that there magical invisible fairies that in fact push objects around based on some magical fey-law. Ok, that's a rather extreme example, but it makes the point.

 

Unless we are told, blatantly and out-of-universe, we can only rely on the information presented in the myths and stories of the various races for many of the events of the Dawn and Mereithic Ages. We have been told, out-of-universe, that Lorkhan and Akatosh are the same god. We have been told, out-of-universe, that the Nerevarine being 'Dragon Born' means he was born in the Empire, NOT that he is Dovahkiin.

 

So far, we have never been given any out-of-universe information to contradict the stories and legends about Kyne's creation of Man. We also don't really have any evidence in other stories which contradicts it. As it stands, the sources Sajuukkhar linked are the ONLY resources which indicate mans beginnings.

[BloodrendX001]

Also bear in mind that 'proof' is a dubious term in the real world, let alone in the Elder Scrolls. We have no proof of the laws of gravity, what we have instead is a base of evidence which supports the theory. It is possible (though highly, extremely, absurdly unlikely) that there magical invisible fairies that in fact push objects around based on some magical fey-law. Ok, that's a rather extreme example, but it makes the point.

 

Unless we are told, blatantly and out-of-universe, we can only rely on the information presented in the myths and stories of the various races for many of the events of the Dawn and Mereithic Ages. We have been told, out-of-universe, that Lorkhan and Akatosh are the same god. We have been told, out-of-universe, that the Nerevarine being 'Dragon Born' means he was born in the Empire, NOT that he is Dovahkiin.

 

So far, we have never been given any out-of-universe information to contradict the stories and legends about Kyne's creation of Man. We also don't really have any evidence in other stories which contradicts it. As it stands, the sources Sajuukkhar linked are the ONLY resources which indicate mans beginnings.

 

Ah, the intricacies of epistemology. The lack of solid proof, that's the whole charm in TES lore. When we find that one, absolutely true, infallible explanation it just gets boring. What else would we have to dedicate hundreds of pages of discussion to? :D

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

Kyne being the mother of men doesn't mean just nords. it means all men.

 

I get what you are saying and if i was a nord trying to figure this stuff out and saw all this "evidence" i would probably start to think like you, however all of this is just what the Nords beleifs are.

None of it is actual proof ;o but thank you for linking all of them anyways ^^

 

Please provide links to lore of the contrary preferably equal or greater in number than that provided by Sajuukkhar9000.

 

Doing so would put you back on equal ground at the very least.

 

Being unable to do so would make your attempt to dismiss those links empty and invalid as you didn't actually dismiss them with anything. As things stand, that is evidence and proof until you have proven otherwise or at least provided lore to effectively counter what has been presented.

 

Not for or against either one of you, just basically observing, but right now, 9000 has the upper hand and the ball is in your court to change that.

[fifteenspades]

 

 

 

Kyne being the mother of men doesn't mean just nords. it means all men.

 

I get what you are saying and if i was a nord trying to figure this stuff out and saw all this "evidence" i would probably start to think like you, however all of this is just what the Nords beleifs are.

None of it is actual proof ;o but thank you for linking all of them anyways ^^

 

Please provide links to lore of the contrary preferably equal or greater in number than that provided by Sajuukkhar9000.

 

Doing so would put you back on equal ground at the very least.

 

Being unable to do so would make your attempt to dismiss those links empty and invalid as you didn't actually dismiss them with anything. As things stand, that is evidence and proof until you have proven otherwise or at least provided lore to effectively counter what has been presented.

 

Not for or against either one of you, just basically observing, but right now, 9000 has the upper hand and the ball is in your court to change that.

 

 

 

 

No need to provide links to lore i just have to discredit the ones linked already.

 

"Children of the Sky : "Nords consider themselves to be the children of the sky" that right there should be enough to show it's a biased book. just because THEY consider themselfs doesn't mean it is true.

 

"Pocket Guide to The Empire : "Throat of the World: This is the highest mountain in Skyrim, and the highest in Tamriel aside from Vvardenfell in Morrowind. The Nords believe men were formed on this mountain when the sky breathed onto the land" Again same thing.

 

"Varieties of Faith in the Empire : "Kyne (Kiss At the End): Nordic Goddess of the Storm. Widow of Shor and favored god of warriors. She is often called the Mother of Men."

Men = more then just nords.

 

"High Hrothgar plaque

With roaring Tongues, the Sky-Children conquer
Founding the First Empire with Sword and Voice
Whilst the Dragons withdrew from this World"

This is from nord lore, written most likely BY NORDS. so it's not very credible

"Gelebor in Dawnguard makes mention of the Nord's belief that Skyrim is their ancestral home.

Dovahkiin: Who were your people?

Gelebor: We were once a wealthy and prosperous society that occupied a portion of Skyrim. Unfortunately, we were constantly at war with the Nords who claimed the land as their ancestral home". For this, Well i would think it's obvious but Just because you claim something does not make it true or give you the right.

"http://www.imperial-library.info/content/shor-son-shor-full" And i already stated this isn't Credible AT all.

This is a forum fragment, to be taken in the same vein as the posts on the long-ago WWPD? thread. Meaning this is not necessarily true...but if it were, what does it mean?

As for NuHatta maybe i read it wrong. but i don't see what it has to do with our debate ;o

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

No need to provide links to lore i just have to discredit the ones linked already.

 

1.) You failed to discredit anything at all. Simply stating that because a group of people believe something that it can't be credible is a majorly flawed argument because it could be credible. Even in your example of Gelebor's statement, he didn't say their claim was wrong, false, and or inaccurate.

 

2.) Fulfilling the request I made would have been the most effective means to even attempt to discredit what was presented by S9000 (I apologize for not using your full name). Trying to discredit a supported claim without presenting a supported claim is ineffective and the strategy commonly used by those that have no argument but refuse to concede.

 

3.) You made a request and S9000 provided what was requested. Rather than counter with similar things, you ineffectively tried to dismiss the response. When a similar request was made by me of you, you failed to comply and ineffectively tried to dismiss what was provided again.

 

Unless you are unable to do so, I find the request simple fifteenspades. If the Nords' claims are false, present the lore to back it where it says something entirely different and or claims the Nords' claims to be false. The lore has to completely make it impossible for the Nords' claims to be true if the lore you present were considered true and of course it is acceptable from this to be from the perspective of another race.

 

Failure to do so suggests an inability to do so which would mean that even if you were to try to continue this argument, it would be abundantly clear that there's no sense heeding your argument any further as it is lacking in lore power and you failed to hold yourself to the same standard as your opponent.

 

(You asked for evidence, but failed to provide any yourself)

 

Good luck.