Anyone else disappointed with the Stormcloak questline?

[Lachdonin]

Another possibility is that Ulfric, upon arriving, told Rogvir that he was there to challenge Torygg. When, upon leaving, he said he won said challenge, so Rogvir opened the gate.

 

The only question, then, would be what was happening in Solitude to let Ulfric just walk out. I suppose, depending on where the duel took place, it could have been a short walk, but still, considering the attitude in Solitude, i find it hard to believe that he could simply walk the streets. The most reasonable explanation is he left some of his own Stormcloaks to cover his escape, which would paint a slightly different light on the "he surrendered to save his men" claim.

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

Considering that one perspective is of the dead man, it's a pretty legitimate perspective lol

 

So because he's dead, he can't be biased? That don't sound right... not to mention, nothing in that says that Ulfric didn't challenge him to a duel. Only that he disagreed with Ulfric's use of the voice. :/

 

 

EDIT: Just wanted to add that I don't see anything in Skyrim that suggests that the dead can't be wrong or that they all somehow become perfect beings devoid of personal perspective.

[TheVampireDante]

 

The only question, then, would be what was happening in Solitude to let Ulfric just walk out. I suppose, depending on where the duel took place, it could have been a short walk, but still, considering the attitude in Solitude, i find it hard to believe that he could simply walk the streets.

 

Only two places I could see Torygg meeting with Ulfric -would either be at his seat of power in the Blue Palace (where Elisef sits) - or up in Castle Dour, maybe it's courtyard? The area in the Blue Palace is fairly small for what Ulfric had in mind, and would be far too difficult to just walk out from if he had acted out there.

 

Unless he called him down to the square near the gate - but I don't see that happening. As I don't see Torygg going far without an escort of guards (plus Thanes maybe, and his other court patrons Like Falk and Sybille). If he's "simply walked up and murdered him" - I doubt he'd have gotten very far at all with the amount of people around, even with his ability to shout. You can only aim that power in one direction at a time, and a castle (or palace) with a load of guards are going to attempt to surround him. Easy to do if he has to run through the city to get to the exit, then has time to get to the stables and collect his Horse.

 

The most reasonable explanation is he left some of his own Stormcloaks to cover his escape, which would paint a slightly different light on the "he surrendered to save his men" claim.

 

I could see him bringing some men with him, but surely a large group of uniformed and armed troops would have set alarm bells ringing amongst the guard and court members. Yes, Ulfric is a Jarl and might travel with a guard - but enough to keep the way open in what would become a hostile location very quickly?

 

Plus, unless Rogvir was known to support him before, and if he'd brought a troop to secure his exit would he have relied on the city's own gatekeeper?

 

There wasn't any mention of him bringing anyone with him though... Galmar maybe, but no mention of him having any other forces with him at Solitude. He may have met up with Ralof and the others after leaving the city and trying to get back across the country to Windhelm.

[Anska]

So you’re right Anska, being tricked and or forced into doing something terrible doesn’t make a person evil or not a good character, but some of us want (or have notions of) the kind of heroic characters that can overcome and or defy any evil and it isn’t all that fun having that forced away from you without any ability of recourse in my opinion.

I pondered this a while and have to concede. I totaly forgot the very basic idea that when you aren't in the mood for something it simply won't do at all, no matter how great it would be otherwise. If you are in the mood for a suspense laden plot with many twists and turns, a sappy and predictable romance story won't make you happy - just as it wouldn't work the other way round.

 

As for deadking Torygg.

 

I would think, a dead man should be the one most biased by his own demise because he is, after all, the one subjected to a rather life-changing experience (or crime, depending on your pov). Not to mention, I am not sure how accurately he was able to percive the last moments of his life, since being shouted at is a pretty shattering experience in itself. Apart from this; how come everything Ulfric says is either a flat out lie or somekind of rhetoric manipulation, while everything the other characters say is either taken literally or as statements "unspoiled" by rhetorics or bias? In his short speech in Sovngard Torygg presents himself as the cultivated, romantic hero (fearless in the face of certain death, while his only thoughts concern the feelings of his lady-love) while casting Ulfric in the role of the honourless brute of a villian who slew him. This is conveyed by the very poetic wording and syntax which presents Torygg as a gentleman capable of genteel speech, while Ulfric on the other side comes across almost as a force of nature (something that subjects you to an inescapable fate, like a great storm for example) and is associated with a "savage" (in other words uncultured) practice. The Highking of Skyrim dares to call one of the most sacred traditions of his own country savage... Apart from sounding somewhat miffed, Torygg's short bit in Sovngarde underlines nicely why Ulfric claims to have killed him: he cared mostly about his wife, was too soft (overly cultivated in a cyrodilic way) and didn't care too much of the more traditional aspects of Skyrim's cultur.

 

Concerning the duel and the escape afterwards: I have never really thought about where the duel took place. I always assumed, it had taken place either in or somewhere near the palace, but Castle Dour seems a plausible location too. If Ulfric had had a large number of people with him, I assume someone would have included this within their story. Yet I would guess he did have someone with him (at least someone who waited for him outside the gate), because it would be odd for a Jarl to travel this far completely on his own.

 

My guess would be that, what made Ulfric's escape possible is exactly the topic we have been debating about on the last page: the confusion over whether he had won the duel or commited a crime. When you ask Sybille Stentor about it, she remarks that they had been too shocked by the events to react at first (I'll look up the exact quote later). I guess in regard to the guards "shocked" simply means that they were somewhat nonplussed, when the duell ended the way and as quickly as it did. They didn't object to Ulfric leaving the scene, because they were not quite sure what to make of the events at first. By the time the dust had settled and the opinion that Ulfric hadn't won the duel but murdered the king had taken shape, Ulfric was already halfway through the city. Now I have two ideas how the story might have concluded: In the more dramatic one, the guards charged after Ulfric and caught sight of him just before the gate. They shouted at Roggvir to close the gate but he didn't. Ulfric escaped and Roggvir got arrested instead. In the less dramatic version, the guards only reached the gate after Ulfric had already left and Roggvir got primaly executed for being the only person in Solitude defending Ulfric's position instead of claiming he knew nothing about the exploited duel and regretting he let the man get away.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Anska

[fifteenspades]

 

 

 

So you’re right Anska, being tricked and or forced into doing something terrible doesn’t make a person evil or not a good character, but some of us want (or have notions of) the kind of heroic characters that can overcome and or defy any evil and it isn’t all that fun having that forced away from you without any ability of recourse in my opinion.

I pondered this a while and have to concede. I totaly forgot the very basic idea that when you aren't in the mood for something it simply won't do at all, no matter how great it would be otherwise. If you are in the mood for a suspense laden plot with many twists and turns, a sappy and predictable romance story won't make you happy - just as it wouldn't work the other way round.

 

As for deadking Torygg.

1. I would think, a dead man should be the one most biased by his own demise because he is, after all, the one subjected to a rather life-changing experience (or crime, depending on your pov). Not to mention, I am not sure how accurately he was able to percive the last moments of his life, since being shouted at is a pretty shattering experience in itself. Apart from this; how come everything Ulfric says is either a flat out lie or somekind of rhetoric manipulation, while everything the other characters say is either taken literally or as statements "unspoiled" by rhetorics or bias? In his short speech in Sovngard Torygg presents himself as the cultivated, romantic hero (fearless in the face of certain death, while his only thoughts concern the feelings of his lady-love) while casting Ulfric in the role of the honourless brute of a villian who slew him. This is conveyed by the very poetic wording and syntax which presents Torygg as a gentleman capable of genteel speech, while Ulfric on the other side comes across almost as a force of nature (something that subjects you to an inescapable fate, like a great storm for example) and is associated with a "savage" (in other words uncultured) practice. The Highking of Skyrim dares to call one of the most sacred traditions of his own country savage... Apart from sounding somewhat miffed, Torygg's short bit in Sovngarde underlines nicely why Ulfric claims to have killed him: he cared mostly about his wife, was too soft (overly cultivated in a cyrodilic way) and didn't care too much of the more traditional aspects of Skyrim's cultur.

Concerning the duel and the escape afterwards: I have never really thought about where the duel took place. I always assumed, it had taken place either in or somewhere near the palace, but Castle Dour seems a plausible location too. If Ulfric had had a large number of people with him, I assume someone would have included this within their story. Yet I would guess he did have someone with him (at least someone who waited for him outside the gate), because it would be odd for a Jarl to travel this far completely on his own.

My guess would be that, what made Ulfric's escape possible is exactly the topic we have been debating about on the last page: the confusion over whether he had won the duel or commited a crime. When you ask 2. Sybille Stentor about it, she remarks that they had been too shocked by the events to react at first (I'll look up the exact quote later). I guess in regard to the guards "shocked" simply means that they were somewhat nonplussed, when the duell ended the way and as quickly as it did. They didn't object to Ulfric leaving the scene, because they were not quite sure what to make of the events at first. By the time the dust had settled and the opinion that Ulfric hadn't won the duel but murdered the king had taken shape, Ulfric was already halfway through the city. Now I have two ideas how the story might have concluded: In the more dramatic one, the guards charged after Ulfric and caught sight of him just before the gate. 3. They shouted at Roggvir to close the gate but he didn't. Ulfric escaped and Roggvir got arrested instead. In the less dramatic version, the guards only reached the gate after Ulfric had already left and Roggvir got primaly executed for being the only person in Solitude defending Ulfric's position instead of claiming he knew nothing about the exploited duel and regretting he let the man get away.

 

 

 

 

1. Whether it's biased or not, he would still be able to recall if it was a fair nordic duel or a murder.

 

2. Pretty sure the shock was more like they didn't expect Ulfric to kill Torygg, Because Torygg had great respect for Ulfric and actually agreed with him on alot. So when Ulfric came to Solitude the only thing Torygg and everyone else were expecting were talks of peace not for Ulfric to kill him.

 

3. In either scenario it doesn't explain how Roggvir can insist he knew about the "Duel" and that it was in fair nordic tradition without actually being there. and then magically being atop the gate at the same time. The only possible solution i can come up with is this entire incident occurred in the Square right before the Gate.

 

If it smells like a pig, taste like a pig and looks like a pig it's probably a pig.

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

I pondered this a while and have to concede. I totaly forgot the very basic idea that when you aren't in the mood for something it simply won't do at all, no matter how great it would be otherwise. If you are in the mood for a suspense laden plot with many twists and turns, a sappy and predictable romance story won't make you happy - just as it wouldn't work the other way round.

 

It's also that usually if the hero is forced into that, redemption is made more clear or possible by being able to make things right. I mean it wouldn't have satisfied me, but maybe if you could at least do something for that man's family.

 

But consider this too, I made an "evil" character that wouldn't have killed that vigilant either because he wants puppets "he creates them, he doesn't become one," as he would somewhat put it.

 

But your words are a shorter way of saying that stuff I said right there.

 

I would think, a dead man should be the one most biased by his own demise because he is, after all, the one subjected to a rather life-changing experience (or crime, depending on your pov).

 

My thoughts exactly. I think there are some of us that don't realize that bias+emo don't automatically equal clear, honest, and or accurate.

 

In fact, they are typically arguments towards the opposite.

 

Point is Spades, a person could still call the fact that they lost a duel (especially if they feel the other person cheated) murder so we can't take the word of a the deceased (of all people) that there was no formal challenge made (especially since he never says that no challenge was made).

 

So while what you're saying is one possibility, so is the possibility that he was in fact challenged. I NEVER even saw the debate on whether Ulfric challenged him or not because that doesn't seem to be the source of contention in the game.

 

The challenge happened. No one seems to truly be disputing that, they appear to b disputing whether or not it was a fair challenge.

 

Sort of like when a team demolishes another team in a sport, many people say something along the lines of, "That? That wasn't a game, it was a slaughter."

 

If a combat veteran mage warrior challenges a 10 year old king to a fight to the death and kills him with ease, everything that has been said against or for Ulfric could be said about that person... so it is far more likely that the challenge happened, but the lopsidedness has divided people on whether it should be viewed as a challenge or as murder.

 

 

1. Whether it's biased or not, he would still be able to recall if it was a fair nordic duel or a murder.

 

He would be biased, so his account would be no more reliable than anyone else's. Ulfric did the deed, so one could argue since he was there and directly involved, he would still be able to recall whether it was a fair Nordic duel or a murder.

[Anska]

To start at the bottom:

 

 

Another possibility is that Ulfric, upon arriving, told Rogvir that he was there to challenge Torygg. When, upon leaving, he said he won said challenge, so Rogvir opened the gate.

 

Is the theorie I go with.

 

They should have expected someone to die in a duel. I don't really go with the idea that Ulfric just showed up in the throne room, killed Torygg and left. I think Ulfric issued the challenege for the duel as it was supposed to have been (which admitedly came as a shock to the court too) and the rest is somewhat shadey and the reason for not jumping into action right after the duel. Secondly: when did "respected him" become "great respect"? The court assumed Ulfric might try to talk Torygg into leaving the Empire, an endeavour all of Torygg's advisors would have opposed. So it is doubtful if it had really been as easy to persuade Torygg as Sybille makes it sound. ... but what Torygg would have done or wouldn't have done is a very uncertain topic at best.

 

The quote from Torygg you posted actually indicates that it was a duel situation too, even if not an honourable one. Torygg had enough time to prepare for death to actually face it fearlessly and think about his terriffied wife, also the questioning of honour makes only sense in a duel situation. It is called "murder" by some people because they equal a dishonourable duel with murder.

 

Doesn't everything taste like chicken anyway?

Edited August 16, 2013 by Anska

[Lachdonin]

Realistically, it could have been a duel, even if dishonorable, and it was accepted begrudgingly by the court, which is why Ulfric was aloud to walk free, at least while the court decided if the use of the voice was aloud. Then, Rogvir let Ulfric leave before the decision was made, rendering the decision of the court useless. They could have even been waiting for the assembly of the Moot so the Jarls could decide if the use of the Voice was permitted.

[Anska]

I was just looking up that quote, I promised yesterday and have to take back what I said about them being shocked. Sybille simply regrets having not noticed sooner what Ulfric was up to. The following quotes should also settle the question if it was a duel in the first place and they also pretty strongly indicate that Ulfric was able to leave Solitude, because nobody objected to him having won the challenge yet just after the duel. Apart from that, they all seemed to have needed some time to recover from the shouting.

 

 

 

Were you there when High King Torygg died?

"I was, to my shame. The whole court was in attendance. I've seen much in my time, but that was a gruesome day."

 

How did it happen?

"Ulfric showed up at the gates of Solitude requesting an audience."

"We thought he was here to ask Torygg to declare independence. By the time we realized Ulfric was here to challenge Torygg... it was already too late."

 

Why was it too late?

"By Nord custom, once the challenge was issued in court, Torygg had no choice but to accept."

"Had he not, Ulfric would have had cause to call a new moot and a new vote for High King."

"Torygg had some martial training, of course, but it mattered little that day."

"When Ulfric's lips parted, when he unleashed the power of the Thu'um... That Shout, that ancient and terrible tongue... ripped Torygg asunder."

 

 

 

And from the way Ulfric and his thu'um are described, (Eilisif even compares it to "something out of a legend... Or a nightmare.") Ulfric made just the impression he was aiming for.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Anska

[fifteenspades]

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooo you are telling me this is how the so called "duel / challenge" works.

 

- Me walking down random street randomly see my current young person in charge of the country ( Torygg was a kid compared to Ulfric )

- Hey bro, Whats up. "nothing, you?" Lets fight then proceed to stab him and kill him.

 

Well by those rules i issued the challenge and he had no choice so it wasn't murder?

And if he denyed the challenge he's not right to be leader, because he didn't want to fight someone that is so far beyond him?

 

Just because they are Nordic Traditions doesn't mean they have to follow them if everyone followed ancient old... obvious stupid traditions Tamriel would be a wreck.

It's literally just Murder still, Ulfric only used the guise of a "Nordic tradition" to accomplish what he wanted.

 

I didn't kill the leader of my country i "challenged" him so its cool. Wink... wink.