Anyone else disappointed with the Stormcloak questline?

[Anska]

The whole point, I brought the duel up for, was as an example for Ulfric using a legally accepted custom/ rule to get his ends, which according to Sybille it was. It might not be a very nice custom or a very clever one (and I still think it was an ugly affair ) but within the legal system of Skyrim it is apparently possible to challenge your High King if you think, he isn't fit for the job - so no matter how unpopular this particular rule is, I believe the example still supports my point.

 

And, to add a particularly heartless observation, from what Sybille says, Torygg very much had a choice. He could have played it cool and waited for Ulfric to call the Moot, changing the battlefield from one he was certain to loose to one he might have had a chance to win (if with a dented reputation).

Edited August 17, 2013 by Anska

[TheVampireDante]

Just because they are Nordic Traditions doesn't mean they have to follow them if everyone followed ancient old... obvious stupid traditions Tamriel would be a wreck.

It's literally just Murder still, Ulfric only used the guise of a "Nordic tradition" to accomplish what he wanted.

 

He arrived, announced that he wanted an audience - and met with Torygg in full view of the court. By the traditions of the land (and Nords are a VERY tradition focused people) - he issued a challenge for the leadership of the country, calling Torygg unfit for the role. Which Ulfric thought he was - too young, and too easy to bend with coin, fancy words and good graces.

 

The court heard the challenge - that was key, there has to be witnesses to the matter. Torygg, not wanting to risk a calling of the Moot - which makes me wonder if he was worried about losing in that arena as well - accepted the challenge and faced Ulfric.

Now, at this point Ulfric used either one of his listed shouts to either disarm Torygg, or force him to the ground - by the description I'd say he used unrelenting force, maybe the first two words - this put Torygg to ground where Ulfric then proceeded to kill him with his sword.

 

After this, it sounds like he simply left the court, went to the stables and prepared to leave. Rogvir let him out, either knowing of the incident beforehand (perhaps he knew the intentions when Ulfric announced his desire to meet with Torygg, overhearing something as he passed through the gate).

From that point - something changed, and the Imperial Legion acted on the matter and started the chase down on Ulfric.

 

*

 

There's one thing that seems off with the entire Civil war scenario, and it's something coming right from the beginning - the timing is off.

 

1. Death of Torygg

2. his burial

3. Legion starts the hunt for Ulfric

4. Stormcloaks form

5. Thalmor strt getting involved

6. Civil war starts in full

 

If so much time has passed, why did they wait so long to execute Rogvir?

If Ulfric started to form his army before the incident with Torygg - how did no one notice?

 

There's still something about Ulfric's capture that seems off.

 

He was caught, with his men - at Darkwater Crossing (Ralof tells you this) - on this map: link - look at where that location is. Why did they go to Helgen?

 

Riften is an Imperial held city. Riverwood is closer to the road - and Whterun is further away, but also a large city that they could have went to (plus, it's Imperial leanings would help). Even Ivarstead is closer. To use the roads to get to Helgen they'd had to have passed a Stormcloak camp - which I don't see happening without incident.

[fifteenspades]

Number 4 is arguably debatable that he formed the Stormcloaks when he was betrayed in Markath.

Which led him to dispatch Torygg.

 

Walk from Helgen to Ivarstead or vice versa using the path that passes the stormcloak falkreath camp and try and see if you can see it from the road.

They could easily have missed it, especially at night. So the Camp could of missed the imperials also.

 

As to why they went to Helgen here are my thoughts

 

-Riften being "imperial held" is a joke

-Whiterun is Neutral can't do it there

-Riverwood is a small village

-Helgen was supposedly a secure fort

-Ivarstead is even smaller then Riverwood

 

Out of all those where would you pick to have the leader of the rebellion you've been fighting for a longtime now executed at.

-You go to Whiterun you risk security from people who support Ulfric

-You go to riverwood well... its riverwood not even a gate to protect that place

-Ivarstead is a ghost town

-And then you have Riften which is beyond unsafe because it's controlled by people who love to profit.

can you think of anyone better to have as hostage and ransom off then a Leader of a Rebellion. Sureee the StormCloaks would pay a great deal of $ to get him back. but the Imperials even more. And it's not like anyone is stupid enough to try and attack riften.

[TheVampireDante]

The forming of the Stormcloaks is never really given a set creation point, why I put it in that order, I feel that the majority of people wouldn't have heard of Ulfric planned cause until the incident with Torygg, leading to more signing up and it becoming a much larger force. He obviously would have had a number of supporters and followers after Markarth - but nowhere near the numbers he does during the games timeframe, the "official" Stormcloak army so to speak.

 

The Stormcloak camp would have had scouts watching it's surrounding area, the noise of an Imperial patrol + those carts would have alerted anyone.

 

Riften: Maven is the Imperial sided Jarl - pay her and you won't have trouble. Imperial legion apparently doesn't have a problem paying it's problems away.

 

Whiterun: Send a messenger ahead - the place will be covered in guards by the time you get there.

 

Helgen itself might be a secure location, but it's a risky journey getting to it as it's off the main roadways really. Especially with (as I already noted earlier) so little men to cover your convoy.

[Anska]

The Rift isn't imperial at the beginning of the game, and even if it was: There is only a very narrow, steep path that goes up to Ivarstead somewhere near Dark Water Crossing and I don't think it's even broad enough for a horse-cart. I think they picked Helgen, because it was the closest town with a military base. Just look at it: Half of the town is actually an Imperial fortress.

 

That Roggvir's execution was delayed for so long is odd indeed, but the rest seems rather plausible to me. The Stormcloaks as such are older than the CW, the original ones apparently were the men who followed him to Markarth 25 (?) years ago. The name was originally meant as an insult but was later adopted by the soldiers themselves as a sort of honorary title (And I currently can't find, where I read this. I think someone in Markarth or one of the Stormcloaks tells the tale.). So after the duel Ulfric's troupes didn't form, they just grew in numbers - just as the country was now forced to take sides. Things went well for Ulfric until the Empire sent its man for dire situations, Tullius, up, who managed to turn the tables again. Catching Ulfric out of his own territory seems indeed daring. Apparently all previous attempts to catch him had failed. At least, that's what Hadvar tells you.

 

Edit: And Helgen becomes perhaps a bit more logical too, if you consider that they were actually on their way to Cyrodil, when Tullius suddenly changed his mind - also according to Hadvar. Perhaps he was afraid the Thalmor would meddle after all.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Anska

[TheVampireDante]

Maven's the Jarl at the start in my game, every time - and while not exactly a "faithful supporter of the Empire" - she's more than likely to be easy to deal with. Your own point makes that clear - she's greedy. Money and power.

 

Pay her for the "convenience" of using her town, and let her gloat about how it was her that provided the stage for Ulfric's end. Similar to Balgruf - but a lot, lot shadier in tone.

 

 

So after the duel Ulfric's troupes didn't form, they just grew in numbers - just as the country was now forced to take sides. Things went well for Ulfric until the Empire sent its man for dire situations, Tullius, up, who managed to turn the tables again. Catching Ulfric out of his own territory seems indeed daring. Apparently all previous attempts to catch him had failed. At least, that's what Hadvar tells you.

 

It's the becoming a larger force and adopting it as their full "military title" I was getting at. The newly increased numbers and the taking of the oath they have for the Civil War effort.

 

 

Edit: And Helgen becomes perhaps a bit more logical too, if you consider that they were actually on their way to Cyrodil, when Tullius suddenly changed his mind - also according to Hadvar. Perhaps he was afraid the Thalmor would meddle after all.

 

I keep forgetting that they were already on the way to Cyrodiil when Tullius changed his thoughts on the matter. Would also explain how the player was picked up if indeed they were caught crossing the border. They'd have got you there and just tossed you in the cart when turning round to go to Helgen. Wonder where they grabbed Lokir... By the sounds of it he was in Darkwater Crossing when the trap on Ulfric was enacted.

[sajuukkhar9000]

Maven's the Jarl at the start in my game, every time - and while not exactly a "faithful supporter of the Empire" - she's more than likely to be easy to deal with. Your own point makes that clear - she's greedy. Money and power.

That's impossible without mods.

 

Edit: And Helgen becomes perhaps a bit more logical too, if you consider that they were actually on their way to Cyrodil, when Tullius suddenly changed his mind - also according to Hadvar. Perhaps he was afraid the Thalmor would meddle after all.

He changed direction because the pale pass had a collapse/avalanche and was unusable.

Edited August 17, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[TheVampireDante]

Really? I don't think I have any mods that alter her, or any of the starting Jarls. Unless another one in my list is changing something it shouldn't. Have to look into that.

[Lachdonin]

Yeah, Yalia Lawgiver should be the default Jarl, and is only replaced by Maven in the even the Empire takes over. Riften starts as a Stormcloak city.

[TheVampireDante]

Been that long since I played an unmodded game. Right, scratch Riften from the list then.