Anyone else disappointed with the Stormcloak questline?

[RighthandofSithis]

1. Stalin managed to turn Russia into an industrialised nation capable of combating Nazi Germany and becoming a superpower in 5-10 years. Hammerfell has had 20 years now, and it is quite possible that the Crowns have done a very similar thing. And also, in 20 years, the Hammerfell has now got another generation of young, fit and warlike Redguards. And you yourself have said that Hammerfell is a force to be reckoned with.

 

2. The Game. How many villages were destroyed?

 

3. Cicero, in conversation and in his journals, has stated repeatedly that Cyrodiil is ravaged by strife, and that 'nowhere there is safe at present'.

 

And I have no interest in discussing the divine nature of the TES universe.

1. But nothing at all supports that they have. If anything, history has shown they probably reverted back to a state of some tension between the crowns and the forebears.

 

Also, while Hammerfell may be strong, which I do admit it is, is it strong enough to take on The Aldmeri dominion to its fullest extent? Does it have the power to go beyond the simple stalemate it achieved, with a home field advantage mind you, against The Thalmor? Does it have the power to march on Alinor and burn the AD to the ground? No.

 

 

2. The game also lacks restrooms in many places, the ability to burn down any sort of building with fire magic despite mages burning down places with fire magic in lore, and TONS of other logical things we know happened despite the game not showing them. Inn keepers never sleep in-game, but does that mean it happened in lore? No.

 

What we see in the games themselves are terrible sources of information, because limitations in the engine prevent many things that should happen from happening.

 

 

3. Cicero is also crazy. Furthermore he is tasked with carrying the Nightmother, who even in the most peaceful of times, would not be safe anywhere.

 

1. Of course, there is no evidence suggesting that the Redguards haven't rebuilt. I'll admit it. However, it is completely possible that they have, and I'd say somewhat likely.

 

And the Redguards would not be in a state of conflict. The Corwns would have defeated the forbears (or just instilled dominance during their war with the Thalmor). The only force that ever supported the forebears was the Empire. And even that couldn't keep them in power in the lead-up to the Great War.

 

Further still, I said Hammerfell would not be alone, it would be an alliance of Hammerfell, Skyrim, and any other force against the Thalmor. And no, they would never be able to provide a quick end to the Thalmor, but at least they'd provide a more effective resistance, for much longer than the Empire.

 

With that in Mind, the Empire is in no position to attack the Thalmor, not now, and not ever (not even Tiber Septim was able to defeat the First Aldmeri Dominion by conventional means, and he was at his height). They have been collapsing for over 200 years, and as I said before, they are falling. I shall elaborate more in the last point.

 

2. But does that contradict what you actually see? What you hear? Speak with Belethor after the Battle for Whiterun, he will tell you his shop survived. Speak with the citizens of Rorrikstead, they will tell you they fear the war, but is their village burned? How about Dragon Bridge, they fear people will destroy the bridge, and take all of their supplies. Does this happen?

 

Furthermore, most of the cities are not directly taken (from what we can see), they are besieged, and the Jarls are forced to resign. The player takes forts, and then the city is forced to surrender.

 

3. Cicero is crazy, and the bearer of the Night Mother. but his insanity has not effected his memory, or his journal entries from 20 years prior to Skyrim. He can remember the info from all the ancient tomes on the Night Mother (and can acknowledge the player as listener). Furthermore, as bearer of the Night Mother, he would need an extreme reason to bring her to Skyrim, like absolute strife in Cyrodiil.

 

He is also the only in-game source that has any information to offer on the subject. He is never contradicted, and Astrid agrees with him that Cyrodiil is in strife, attributing it to the chaos caused after the Great War. He also has no political affiliations or loyalties (only having a loyalty to the Brotherhood), making him an unbiased source for information happening in Cyrodiil.

 

Also, he doesn't just mention Cyrodiil. He also states that Wayrest falls to the corsairs. Now, the Empire, if it was strong and healthy, would never have let one of High Rock's richest, and most powerful city's fall to a group of pirates.

 

Now, lets take into consideration the whole issue. Following the Great War, Cyrodiil's economy and infrastructure would have been ruined. We know that they couldn't hire mercenaries to retake Markarth after the Markarth Incident (which I shall elaborate more on later), so they accepted Ulric's terms.Of course, in 20 years, the Cyrodiil may have rebuilt its infrastructure, in the same way Hammerfell may have, but as previously mentioned, Hammerfell has not had the trouble of constant riots, gang wars, and unrest. Similarly, we know, for a fact, that the Empire cannot spare any forces to put down Ulfric. All of their forces are desperately tied down on the border with the Dominion. We know for a fact that Tullius commands the 4th legion, leading us to safely assume that the Empire has at least four legions. However, we can't assume they have many more (like some people have proposed 20), as after the Pyrrhic Victory at Red Ring, the Empire did not have any legions even at half strength, and combined with a likely lack of funds, they would not have recovered.

 

The Markarth Incident was another issue. Following the Great War, the Empire wanted to retake Markarth. Do you think they would have preferred Ulfric's assistance? Other any other mercanary group that could have done it for a price other than Talos worship? They didn;t have the money or forces to take Markarth without Ulfric, and they had to offer Religious freedom. This virtually states the Empire had nothing in their treasury, and with a destroyed infrastructure and a rioting populace, they can't have recovered a powerful economy. At best, they are now trying to rectify the situation, but with all of there forces needed on the border, how can they?

 

As I have said before, Cyrodiil is still in strife. I shall list off areas certain to be experiencing some form of rioting or violence:

 

Bravil has erupted into violence between rival drug gangs. Cicero stated this.

 

Cheydinhal has bandits running around inside its walls. One such bandit killed one of the last DB members in Cheydinhal (forcing Cicero to flee).

 

If Bruma hasn't followed Ulfric's lead already, they will eventually.

 

One of the novels mentioned that Skingrad is being plagued by guerrilla fighters called 'The Natives'.

 

Leyawiin is in a hellish position. Black Marsh one side, Elsweyr the other. Now that Elsweyr is under Thalmor controll, you can bet that the Khajiit are trying to retake the city, and now with Thalmor support.

 

The only thing that could save Anvil from being a Pirate Haven is the Aldmeri navy. Not much of a saving grace.

 

That leaves the Imperial City, and Chorol in a stable condition.

 

High Rocks situation is probably not any better. Wayrest, one of their most powerful cities has fallen to pirates. This can hardly be an isolated issue. Unless it was a plotted, and organised attack against one city, you can bet Daggerfall has experienced its share of pillaging. In fact, I'd say that the Illiac Bay is having this problem (particularly the Blood Horkers). We alos know that Skyrim is in the middle of a Civil War.

 

Now, how does the Empire look after all that? It is not a superpower anymore. It is clawing for its life.

Edited August 20, 2012 by RighthandofSithis

[sajuukkhar9000]

1. Right, because the Redguards, who have had internal political strife since they reached Tamriel's shores, long before they became part of The Empire, would have had one of its two factions just give up after being defeated by the other?

 

As it stands now Hammefell is most likely right back to where it was before the Great War, in a state of political strife between the crowns and forebears possibly to the point that they might have their own civil war. Having an oppressive ruling class does not spell any sort of unity or stability for Hammerfell in the long run, especially considering history has shown the Crowns and Forbears happily let the other be attacked and destroyed by enemy factions.

 

 

2. Actually game files have shown that the Civil War WAS supposed to include burning down mills, capturing mines, and many other things which were cut due to time and bugs, showing that the original intent was to have them done.

 

Furthermore NPC dialog is limited and MANY things that they logically should have dialog about, they don't. Farengar keeps telling me to go to the College of Winterhold, despite being Arch-Mage. Vilkas has never heard of me, despite me being Thane of every hold, slayer of Alduin, and countless other titles, 99% of people don't mention how I am the Harbinger of The Companions, despite the fact that The Companions are well known throughout the land.

 

Really, trying to use the lack of NPC dialog on something as proof of anything is a desperate, and flawed at its core, argument.

 

 

3. Except the fact that historically pirates have sacked cities across the 4 empires, at various states of those Empire's existences. Even some of the largest Empires of the real world have had cities sacked when they were at a high point, it is sometimes just impossible to defend everything.

 

-Were does it say anywhere that the riots, and gang wars in Cyrodiil are constant? Nowhere. Baseless assumptions

 

-Tullius being part of the 4th legion is fanon from TESWiki, never use TESWiki for lore, it is almost always wrong or full of fanon.

 

Beyond that Tullius never makes mention that the Legions are "desperately" holding back the AD on the border, just that The Empire refuses to give him more soldiers. It would be idiotic of The Empire to weaken its border defense when both sides know the other is planning for another Great War, and the AD surprise attacked last time.

 

Furthermore, had prophecy not gotten in the way, Tullius would have executed Uflric at Helgen, and the civil war would have ended mere months after it began, showing that, despite having most of their forces on the AD border, The Empire still has enough power to put down a rebellion fairly quickly.

 

So your saying that Hammerfell, the most barren wasteland of any province, would have recovered, but Cyrodiil, the ENTIRE CONTINENTS BREAK BASKET wouldn't have? Sorry if your math and logic escapes me.

 

-The Markarth incident happened just a year after the Great War ended, which was 30 years ago. OFC The Empire couldn't hire mercs at the time, the war had just ended, but to try to attribute The Empire's position 30 years ago, to that of now, is laughable.

 

-As for your list

--Rival drug gangs exist in every nation, and constantly have wars between the two.

--What determines a bandit though? To use your so commonly used tactic of treating gameplay as fact, I can wear bandit armor inside the walls of any city in Skyrim, and none of the guards do anything but comment on it, As long as the bandit had no outstanding bounty, he could have walked in freely, and if that were possible, in pretty sure many "bandits" walk inside the citites buying stuff for thier ocmrads who can't.

--Baseless assumptions about Bruma.

--Wow a named bandit group..... those don't exist... everywhere... hell Morrowind had tons of those, as did Cyrodiil during Oblivion's time.

--Considering that The Thalmor aren't openly attacking, the Khajiit can't be trying to "retake" anything.

--Funny because I distinctly remember the Umbranox family coming into power when their ancestor used The Imperial Navy to defeat the local pirates. while the AD have a large navy yes, to say that the Imperial navy couldn't keep anvil pirateless is baseless speculation.

-More baseless assumptions on the state of the Illiac bay, which does include Hammerfell mind you and would mean they are also in a bad state of pirate attacks.

 

 

The Empire looks like it always has,f filled with bandits, murders, pirates, and the ilk.

 

The only difference now is that they don't have the historical revisionist Septim line on the throne to write most of it out of history as they desire.

Edited August 20, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[RighthandofSithis]

1. Right, because the Redguards, who have had internal political strife since they reached Tamriel's shores, long before they became part of The Empire, would have had one of its two factions just give up after being defeated by the other?

 

As it stands now Hammefell is most likely right back to where it was before the Great War, in a state of political strife between the crowns and forebears possibly to the point that they might have their own civil war. Having an oppressive ruling class does not spell any sort of unity or stability for Hammerfell in the long run, especially considering history has shown the Crowns and Forbears happily let the other be attacked and destroyed by enemy factions.

 

 

2. Actually game files have shown that the Civil War WAS supposed to include burning down mills, capturing mines, and many other things which were cut due to time and bugs, showing that the original intent was to have them done.

 

Furthermore NPC dialog is limited and MANY things that they logically should have dialog about, they don't. Farengar keeps telling me to go to the College of Winterhold, despite being Arch-Mage. Vilkas has never heard of me, despite me being Thane of every hold, slayer of Alduin, and countless other titles, 99% of people don't mention how I am the Harbinger of The Companions, despite the fact that The Companions are well known throughout the land.

 

Really, trying to use the lack of NPC dialog on something as proof of anything is a desperate, and flawed at its core, argument.

 

 

3. Except the fact that historically pirates have sacked cities across the 4 empires, at various states of those Empire's existences. Even some of the largest Empires of the real world have had cities sacked when they were at a high point, it is sometimes just impossible to defend everything.

 

-Were does it say anywhere that the riots, and gang wars in Cyrodiil are constant? Nowhere. Baseless assumptions

 

-Tullius being part of the 4th legion is fanon from TESWiki, never use TESWiki for lore, it is almost always wrong or full of fanon.

 

Beyond that Tullius never makes mention that the Legions are "desperately" holding back the AD on the border, just that The Empire refuses to give him more soldiers. It would be idiotic of The Empire to weaken its border defense when both sides know the other is planning for another Great War, and the AD surprise attacked last time.

 

Furthermore, had prophecy not gotten in the way, Tullius would have executed Uflric at Helgen, and the civil war would have ended mere months after it began, showing that, despite having most of their forces on the AD border, The Empire still has enough power to put down a rebellion fairly quickly.

 

So your saying that Hammerfell, the most barren wasteland of any province, would have recovered, but Cyrodiil, the ENTIRE CONTINENTS BREAK BASKET wouldn't have? Sorry if your math and logic escapes me.

 

-The Markarth incident happened just a year after the Great War ended, which was 30 years ago. OFC The Empire couldn't hire mercs at the time, the war had just ended, but to try to attribute The Empire's position 30 years ago, to that of now, is laughable.

 

-As for your list

--Rival drug gangs exist in every nation, and constantly have wars between the two.

--What determines a bandit though? To use your so commonly used tactic of treating gameplay as fact, I can wear bandit armor inside the walls of any city in Skyrim, and none of the guards do anything but comment on it, As long as the bandit had no outstanding bounty, he could have walked in freely, and if that were possible, in pretty sure many "bandits" walk inside the citites buying stuff for thier ocmrads who can't.

--Baseless assumptions about Bruma.

--Wow a named bandit group..... those don't exist... everywhere... hell Morrowind had tons of those, as did Cyrodiil during Oblivion's time.

--Considering that The Thalmor aren't openly attacking, the Khajiit can't be trying to "retake" anything.

--Funny because I distinctly remember the Umbranox family coming into power when their ancestor used The Imperial Navy to defeat the local pirates. while the AD have a large navy yes, to say that the Imperial navy couldn't keep anvil pirateless is baseless speculation.

-More baseless assumptions on the state of the Illiac bay, which does include Hammerfell mind you and would mean they are also in a bad state of pirate attacks.

 

 

The Empire looks like it always has,f filled with bandits, murders, pirates, and the ilk.

 

The only difference now is that they don't have the historical revisionist Septim line on the throne to write most of it out of history as they desire.

 

1. "Hammerfell was conquered by the Second Empire in the Second Age, during which time the Ra Gada warriors were finally granted semi-equal rights to the Na-Totambu ruling class. During the Interregnum (See Cyrodiil), however, the Na-Totambu regained control, making the Ra Gada a subservient class again. The capital was moved from Old Hegathe to the merchant power of Sentinel, capital of the province to this day.

 

After the death of Thassad II, the Ra Gada took Sentinel by force, resulting in the bloodiest massacre in Hammerfell history, at the hands of Crown Prince A'tor. Tiber Septim and the Third Empire were called to help, defeating A'tor's forces at the Battle of Hunding Bay. Hammerfell then became a province of the Third Empire."

 

-The UESP http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Hammerfell

 

So, Hammerfell has been experiencing class struggle since its birth. Well, it seems that the Crowns managed to effectively subdue them from the years 2E 430 to 2E 864. That's more than 400 years. (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Second_Era)

 

Now, lets make the logical assumption that, based on the fact the Crowns held control of Northern Hammerfell during the Great War, and thus formed the majority of the free force to combat the Thalmor, the Crowns have subjugated the Forbears again. Based on this history, it is rather clear that the Crowns could instill their dominance effectively over the forbears.

 

2. Fine, I shall give you that.

 

3. I could have sworn I read that Tullius led the 4th legion on the UESP at some point. Either way, it must have been removed.

 

However, I know for a fact that a War as severe as the Great War would have left Cyrodiil in a wrenched condition. Look at the real life 'Great War'. How did Europe look after that?

 

With this in mind, economically and militarily, the Empire (that had been collapsing for 200 years, look here: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fourth_Era) was ruined following the Great War. Proof lies with he who asserts, I have asserted that Cyrodiil was ruined. Now assert (with evidence) that Cyrodiil has recovered. (And please take in mind what I'm about to say below.)

 

But of course, you will completely forget my argument based on the social situation in Cyrodiil. You have not met Cicero have you? So I'll give you these links: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Cicero and http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Cicero%27s_Journal

 

Now, onto my other arguments:

 

Bruma: You are not a revolutionary, or have any interest in revolutionary theory. Its class consciousness. The Nords of Bruma know the Nords of Skyrim are rebelling. They would have the exact mindset of their northern cousins, hate the Concordat, want Talos, can;t stand the Thalmor, and as such, see the Empire as the enemy. With this in mind, they want to liberate themselves of the Imperial Aristocracy, and replace it with a Nordic aristocracy.

 

If you want the term we use, its called World Revolution (however, the Stormcloak cause can't really spread across Tamriel).

 

Anvil: Imperial Navy. Seriously. The First Aldmeri Dominion was was created to defend Smmerset Isles from pirates, and as such it had a strong focus on its navy. Not to mention it's obvious importance. You can be sure the second Aldmeri Dominion has a navy just as powerful. Now, given said navy would control the seas around Valenwood and Elswer, what does that give the Empire. A possible navy in High Rock and Skyrim. How could they have an effective navy in Cyrodiil? They'd only have two safe passages to the sea, and they're so narrow, that they could easily be controlled by the Thalmor. So what can the Imperial Navy do? Prevent a a force sailing up the Niben.

 

Illiac Bay: Yes, Empires are always sacked. But I find it hard to believe that Wayrest, one of the Empires most valued cities in High Rock, fell to a group of pirates, and the Empire somehow is strong.

[sajuukkhar9000]

1. Subduing is not the same as stability, being able to subdue someone does not grantee their cooperation, or that they wont leave you dry when your fighting an enemy. Just because the Crowns subdued the forbears does not mean Hammerfell is a truly unified force, they are fractured, splintered, and nowhere as near as effective as they would be had the two groups allied. Hammerfell is now as it was then, crippled by petty political squabbling.

 

Furthermore we could also make the assumption that since The Thalmor controlled most of the southern cities, the cities held by the forbears, it was them who did most of the fighting, as they would be the ones more interested in reclaiming their lands. The Forebears indeed could have been the ones to actually gain Hammerfell's "freedom" and I find it unlikely that after gaining their cities back, they would just take the Crowns trying to roll over them, and force them back into second-class peoples. My assumption is just as possible as yours, and it is irrelevant because both are equally baseless.

 

 

2. If Cyrodiil was in such a sorry state, how is it that their military was, in mere months, able to capture Ulfirc Stromcloak and almost end the rebellion? Had prophecy not interfered, Uflric would have died at Helgen, and the rebellion would have been defeated with relative ease by Tullius. If your assertion that Cyrodiil is in a sorry state that is unable to fight the AD is true, then the Stormcloacks were in an even worse state, and I would have to question why you believe a group that had effectively lost in a fight with The Empire could win against the AD.

 

Furthermore I didn't ignore your argument before, I pointed out how all the things that are happening in Cyrodiil really aren't that uncommon. Anyone who has played Oblivion could tell you that Cyrodiil was rife with bandit gangs, drug dealers, goblin tribes that attack towns, and countless other things described in Cicero's journal, and those were things that were happened the same day, and long before, The Emperor was killed, a time when the Empire was doing very well for itself. All Cicero, and his journal, prove is that the exact same stuff that was happening before the Septim dynasty died is happening now.

 

 

3. Bruma: the last city that held after the AD attacked Cyrodiil, the city that went down in the history books as the city whose trade route allowed The Empire's forces to reclaim the Imperial city. A city whose people have always been very loyal to The Empire, a city who knows what the cost of taking back The Imperial City was, and how little The Empire had to defend itself with afterwards. A city whose people would understand why The Empire "surrendered" to buy time in order to rebuild to ap oint were it oculd march on the Dominion.

 

See I can do it to, spin fantastical tales about why the people would join one side or the other, but in the end it all comes down to the point that both arguments are equally baseless, and neither can be stated as fact.

 

 

4. I think you need to look up the history of the Aldmeri Dominion again because pirates were not the cause of its formation.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Aldmeri_Dominion

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/Aldmeri_Dominion

"Literally translated as "Home of the Elves", the Aldmeri Dominion was an empire that as of 2E 830 made up the realms of Summerset Isle and Valenwood. It was formed when the heirs of the Camoran Dynasty began to fight over the Valenwood throne. A faction of Bosmer attempted to make peace with their enemies in the Colovian Estates by offering part of the Valenwood territory in exchange for the faction's claimant. The Altmer, upon hearing of this, invaded Valenwood, citing a stewardship clause in a thousand year old treaty"

 

I said the Imperial Navy was able to defend Anvil from pirates, not fight the AD. The Empire, and indeed no one, really has a chance to match the AD's navy, though with the help of Hammerfell, help with they would most likely get should the need arise, the combined forces could be enough to keep them distracted.

 

 

5. Considering we know so little about the situation in High Rock at the time, I wouldn't rule anything out, but to place blame solely on a weakened Empire without knowing anything about the situation beyond "it happened" is really stupid. You can't make an informed decision on a situation if you know literally nothing about it, everything would be assumptions, and even then assumptions normally have some evidence behind them, these would be baseless assumptions.

[RighthandofSithis]

1. Subduing is not the same as stability, being able to subdue someone does not grantee their cooperation, or that they wont leave you dry when your fighting an enemy. Just because the Crowns subdued the forbears does not mean Hammerfell is a truly unified force, they are fractured, splintered, and nowhere as near as effective as they would be had the two groups allied. Hammerfell is now as it was then, crippled by petty political squabbling.

 

Furthermore we could also make the assumption that since The Thalmor controlled most of the southern cities, the cities held by the forbears, it was them who did most of the fighting, as they would be the ones more interested in reclaiming their lands. The Forebears indeed could have been the ones to actually gain Hammerfell's "freedom" and I find it unlikely that after gaining their cities back, they would just take the Crowns trying to roll over them, and force them back into second-class peoples. My assumption is just as possible as yours, and it is irrelevant because both are equally baseless.

 

 

2. If Cyrodiil was in such a sorry state, how is it that their military was, in mere months, able to capture Ulfirc Stromcloak and almost end the rebellion? Had prophecy not interfered, Uflric would have died at Helgen, and the rebellion would have been defeated with relative ease by Tullius. If your assertion that Cyrodiil is in a sorry state that is unable to fight the AD is true, then the Stormcloacks were in an even worse state, and I would have to question why you believe a group that had effectively lost in a fight with The Empire could win against the AD.

 

Furthermore I didn't ignore your argument before, I pointed out how all the things that are happening in Cyrodiil really aren't that uncommon. Anyone who has played Oblivion could tell you that Cyrodiil was rife with bandit gangs, drug dealers, goblin tribes that attack towns, and countless other things described in Cicero's journal, and those were things that were happened the same day, and long before, The Emperor was killed, a time when the Empire was doing very well for itself. All Cicero, and his journal, prove is that the exact same stuff that was happening before the Septim dynasty died is happening now.

 

 

3. Bruma: the last city that held after the AD attacked Cyrodiil, the city that went down in the history books as the city whose trade route allowed The Empire's forces to reclaim the Imperial city. A city whose people have always been very loyal to The Empire, a city who knows what the cost of taking back The Imperial City was, and how little The Empire had to defend itself with afterwards. A city whose people would understand why The Empire "surrendered" to buy time in order to rebuild to ap oint were it oculd march on the Dominion.

 

See I can do it to, spin fantastical tales about why the people would join one side or the other, but in the end it all comes down to the point that both arguments are equally baseless, and neither can be stated as fact.

 

 

4. I think you need to look up the history of the Aldmeri Dominion again because pirates were not the cause of its formation.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Aldmeri_Dominion

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/Aldmeri_Dominion

"Literally translated as "Home of the Elves", the Aldmeri Dominion was an empire that as of 2E 830 made up the realms of Summerset Isle and Valenwood. It was formed when the heirs of the Camoran Dynasty began to fight over the Valenwood throne. A faction of Bosmer attempted to make peace with their enemies in the Colovian Estates by offering part of the Valenwood territory in exchange for the faction's claimant. The Altmer, upon hearing of this, invaded Valenwood, citing a stewardship clause in a thousand year old treaty"

 

I said the Imperial Navy was able to defend Anvil from pirates, not fight the AD. The Empire, and indeed no one, really has a chance to match the AD's navy, though with the help of Hammerfell, help with they would most likely get should the need arise, the combined forces could be enough to keep them distracted.

 

 

5. Considering we know so little about the situation in High Rock at the time, I wouldn't rule anything out, but to place blame solely on a weakened Empire without knowing anything about the situation beyond "it happened" is really stupid. You can't make an informed decision on a situation if you know literally nothing about it, everything would be assumptions, and even then assumptions normally have some evidence behind them, these would be baseless assumptions.

 

1. Hammerfell cannot be in a state of civil war if the Crowns have instilled their dominance. The Forbears may not like it, and indeed, I know they would want to overthrow the Crowns (given their low level in Crown society), but they are not, as of now, in a civil war. Furthermore, in the event of a War with the Dominion, the Crowns and Forbears would still recognise the common enemy, even if they were in a civil war.

 

2. Military genius. Tullius controls a 'handful of legions' (Quoting General Tullius), and he was able to capture Ulfric, but how is one ambush (in which he outnumbered Ulfrics forces) redeem the state of the entire Legion? They can't even control Cyrodiil (which I shall further elaborate more on next), and Hadvar stated that the Empire was screwed until Tullius came along.

 

And yes, I have played Oblivion. and Morrowind before that. But the situation the Empire faces is much worse than during the game Oblivion (of course, ignoring the Crisis itself, which set the whole degeneration of the Empire in motion). In Oblivion, the Empire was at its height, literally. Uriel had been restored to the throne, the Warp in the West bought the Illiac Bay under full imperial Control, in Morrowind, the Tribunal had fallen, and Helseth became the dominant political figure in the region, and all the while, Cyrodiil was prospering. At this time, Bravil, while a slum, was not destroyed by gang violence, Leyawiin, while under attack by the Renrijra Krin (which it possibly still is), was not in a hopeless situation. Cheydinhal was not in a situation were members of the Dark Brotherhood could be killed by bandits, and the city guard could take care of bandits that slipped into the city (Discussion about the Knights of the Thorn). Bruma had no reason to revolt (still acknowledging your argument). Skingrad was the richest city in Cyrodiil (given its grand manors, and fine foods). Kvatch, admittedly, was destroyed. And Anvil was able to boast having almost unrestricted access to the sea (with imperial naval superiority). And above all, the Night Mother did not need to be moved from Cyrodiil, even with the Cyrodiil branch decimated.

 

However, now, it is a different situation. In the 200 years since Oblivion, the Empire has all but collapsed (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fourth_Era). Red Mountain, the loss of Summerset Isle, Valenwood, Black Marsh, Elsweyr, and Hammerfell, the emergence of Umbriel and the Great War have taken its toll on the Empire. It has come to the point were Cicero describes the situation as:

 

"The Imperial Province is ravaged by strife. Nowhere there is safe, at present" http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Cicero

 

"Wayrest is lost. The city fell to corsairs..."

"The situation in Bravil grows more dire. The city has erupted in violence, due to a war of control being waged by Cyrodiil's two largest skooma traffickers. The Listener, Alisanne Dupre, has been forced to employ sellswords to protect her own residence."

"After Garnag and Andronica left for Bravil, we stopped receiving communications from the city."

"Cheydinhal has erupted into violence and chaos, like so many other cities before it."

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Cicero%27s_Journal

 

This terminology does not paint the image of an Empire with a few issues, but on the whole, a powerful force. This actively paints the image in the readers mind that Cyrodiil has erupted into violence and civil unrest. Is this reliable? Yes, Cicero, as I have stated, can remember things clearly, and if he can't, his journal can. He has no affiliation other than to the Night Mother, so he is not biased about the situation. And, lastly, the Dark Brotherhood, a force that has single handedly crumbled Empires, has been destroyed with very little Imperial input (only the attack on Falkreath). He has been forced into taking drastic action: taking the Night Mother away from Cyrodiil (where she has laid for thousands of years).

 

Also note how in the last quote, he says 'like so many other cities before it.' By saying that, he is strongly implying that the violence is not an isolated issue. e is almost stating that all of Cyrodiil is in chaos.

 

3. You could argue that about Bruma, but remember that Ulfric and Galmar served in the Great War, and they witnessed firsthand the state of the Empire, and they still wish to become independent of it. The Nords of bruma, just like in Skyrim, are likely divided on the issue (assuming that they are treated equally, and are not a poor majority of its population).

 

4.Perhas I should have said it was A reason for the formation of the AD (having read that at some point). However, it doesn't change the fact that the Imperial Navy is useless. It has no ability to combat the Thalmor, and doesn;t have the space to work properly. It is probably undervalued (for good reason).

 

5. Indeed, there are more factors at play. But if the Empire was strong, it would not have let this happen (coming back to the Navy issue).

[CuliacanMexico]

...The story was written so the player could join either side...

For my characters... not so much.

 

At the start of the game my character is going to be killed by the Empire for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Even when it is pointed out that I am not a rebel... they don't really care.

 

I would need a fairly strong back story to side with the Empire at this point.

[sajuukkhar9000]

For my characters... not so much.

 

At the start of the game my character is going to be killed by the Empire for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Even when it is pointed out that I am not a rebel... they don't really care.

 

I would need a fairly strong back story to side with the Empire at this point.

Your character was captured in the vicinity of Ulfirc, The Empire's number one most wanted criminal.

 

It's like being captured in the same house as Osama Bin Laden, and then claiming you are not with him.

 

Why on earth would they have any reason to believe you?

Edited September 11, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[CuliacanMexico]

For my characters... not so much.

 

At the start of the game my character is going to be killed by the Empire for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Even when it is pointed out that I am not a rebel... they don't really care.

 

I would need a fairly strong back story to side with the Empire at this point.

Your character was captured in the vicinity of Ulfirc, The Empire's number one most wanted criminal.

 

It's like being captured in the same house as Osama Bin Laden, and then claiming you are not with him.

 

Why on earth would they have any reason to believe you?

 

It is implied that the Storm Cloaks were betrayed by someone, plus they had a list.

 

I wasn't on it. They didn't care, why would I back them at this point in the story?

 

It is a binary choice at the first... stay with the Empire soldiers who were just about to kill me or try and escape.

 

If they were willing to execute me just for being in the vicinity, why would I expect them not to follow through after the dragon left?

[sajuukkhar9000]

It is implied that the Storm Cloaks were betrayed by someone, plus they had a list.

 

I wasn't on it. They didn't care, why would I back them at this point in the story?

 

It is a binary choice at the first... stay with the Empire soldiers who were just about to kill me or try and escape.

 

If they were willing to execute me just for being in the vicinity, why would I expect them not to follow through after the dragon left?

It is not implied at all that the Stormcloaks were betrayed by someone.

 

It doesn't mater if they had a list, if you were in the same house as Osama, but not known to be one of Osams friends, you would still have been arrested/killed for being an associate of Osama.

 

Because, helping a Empire solider escape could easily grant you a pardon?

[CuliacanMexico]

It is not implied at all that the Stormcloaks were betrayed by someone.

 

It doesn't mater if they had a list, if you were in the same house as Osama, but not known to be one of Osams friends, you would still have been arrested/killed for being an associate of Osama.

 

Because, helping a Empire solider escape could easily grant you a pardon?

You wish to justify why the Empire is summarily killing an innocent man/woman, but why would the character being murdered care about that rational?

 

 

You are not helping an Empire soldier escape... he is telling you to follow him. I am not sure why my character would assume I would get a pardon for that.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Culiacan Mexico