Down with the old Blades we need New Blades

[JonyJC]

Just reminding people that only the dragonborn can permanently kill dragons, he doesn't become useless after he defeats Alduin.

[sajuukkhar9000]

Just reminding people that only the dragonborn can permanently kill dragons, he doesn't become useless after he defeats Alduin.

That is entirely incorrect.

 

The Dovahkiin in the only person who can take the souls of Dragons, making them unable to be resurrected. Any average Joe can kill a dragon, but as long as it still has its soul Alduin can bring it back.

 

However, with the defeat of Alduin by the Dovahkiin, the one and only dragon that is known to be able to resurrect Dragons, is gone.

 

If you pay attention, when you time travel back to the Dragon War, you can see MANY dead dragons who haven't had their soul taken, they still have their flesh and everything, because there was no Dragonborn during the time of the Dragon War to take their souls.

 

The only dragon that needed a special person to kill was Alduin, only because he is Akatosh.

Edited August 22, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[ClonePatrol]

Just reminding people that only the dragonborn can permanently kill dragons, he doesn't become useless after he defeats Alduin.

That is entirely incorrect.

 

The key word in JonyJC's post is permanently. His post is literally correct, anyone can kill a dragon but it won't be permanent unless they are a dragonborn. Since the Dragonborn didn't absorb the soul of Alduin it's not only possible that Alduin isn't permanently gone, but likely (it is the theory put forth by Paarthurnax and Arngeir). How long Alduin will remain gone is impossible to say.

 

If/when Alduin returns again then he can start resurrecting any dragons that weren't killed by the Dragonborn once again. If anyone kills a dragon but the Dragonborn then that dragon would also have to be resurrected in order for the dragon to be permanently killed and thus unavailable to Alduin.

 

If anyone can manage to learn the specific Shout to resurrect dragons that Alduin used (possibly through the use of an Elder Scroll) they may even be able to use it to resurrect Alduin himself.

 

It also can't be assumed outright that Alduin is Akatosh, the exact natures and many different names of deities in TES is meant to make things related to them unclear even to the player. There are loads of creation myths and different beliefs about it all even within the game-world. Some think Alduin is Akatosh, some think he's the "firstborn of Akatosh", some think they're entirely unrelated entities. Some think Akatosh is the same entity as the elven god Auri-El, who may be the same entity as Anu the Everything, who may be the twin deity of Padomay who may be the same entity as Sithis, and that from a battle between them sprang the rest of the Aedra and Daedra both. That stuff isn't supposed to be clear in the slightest.

[sajuukkhar9000]

The key word in JonyJC's post is permanently. His post is literally correct, anyone can kill a dragon but it won't be permanent unless they are a dragonborn. Since the Dragonborn didn't absorb the soul of Alduin it's not only possible that Alduin isn't permanently gone, but likely (it is the theory put forth by Paarthurnax and Arngeir). How long Alduin will remain gone is impossible to say.

 

If/when Alduin returns again then he can start resurrecting any dragons that weren't killed by the Dragonborn once again. If anyone kills a dragon but the Dragonborn then that dragon would also have to be resurrected in order for the dragon to be permanently killed and thus unavailable to Alduin.

 

If anyone can manage to learn the specific Shout to resurrect dragons that Alduin used (possibly through the use of an Elder Scroll) they may even be able to use it to resurrect Alduin himself.

 

It also can't be assumed outright that Alduin is Akatosh, the exact natures and many different names of deities in TES is meant to make things related to them unclear even to the player. There are loads of creation myths and different beliefs about it all even within the game-world. Some think Alduin is Akatosh, some think he's the "firstborn of Akatosh", some think they're entirely unrelated entities. Some think Akatosh is the same entity as the elven god Auri-El, who may be the same entity as Anu the Everything, who may be the twin deity of Padomay who may be the same entity as Sithis, and that from a battle between them sprang the rest of the Aedra and Daedra both. That stuff isn't supposed to be clear in the slightest.

Well even the Dovahkiin's killing of them isn't permanent, when the Dovahkiin dies he will release all the souls he has trapped.

 

Furthermore, with The Dovahkiin's defeat of Alduin, Alduin has gone back to Akatosh. Alduin wont return unless Akatosh deems the world ready to be destroyed, and at that point Alduin will not be resurrecting Dragons, but eating the world. Dragons being able to come back via Alduin resurrecting them is pointless now.

 

Considering the shout requires that the Dragon's body be there, and since Alduin's body was entirely destroyed, at least in the mortal plain, you cant bring him back. furthermore, that no other Dragon possesses this shout, shows that the shout is most likely tied to Alduin in some way meaning he is most likely the only one who can use it, being the time-god and everything.

 

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archives-michael-kirkbride

On the different time-dragons:

 

Don't forget that gods can be shaped by the mythopoeic forces of the mantlers-- so Tosh Raka could be an Akaviri avatar of Akatosh with a grudge against his mirror-brother in Cyrodiil.

 

Just like Akatosh-as-we-usually-know-him could time-scheme against his mirror-brother of the Nords, Alduin, to keep the present kalpa-- perhaps his favorite-- from being eaten.

Alduin is Akatosh is Tosh Raka is Auri-el, each are THE dragon god of time, and each are their own separate being who can fight eachother, the concept of mirror-brothers is incredibly basic lore.

 

It was known ages ago that all versions of the gods exist simultaneously. All pantheons of gods are true, and all creation myths are true. It just happened to different versions of the same gods.

 

Next your probably going to make the claim that Lorkhan isn't Sithis, or Akatosh isn't Lorkhan, or some other thing that was confirmed to be true ages ago.

Edited August 22, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[ClonePatrol]

On the different time-dragons:

 

Don't forget that gods can be shaped by the mythopoeic forces of the mantlers-- so Tosh Raka could be an Akaviri avatar of Akatosh with a grudge against his mirror-brother in Cyrodiil.

 

Just like Akatosh-as-we-usually-know-him could time-scheme against his mirror-brother of the Nords, Alduin, to keep the present kalpa-- perhaps his favorite-- from being eaten.

 

I've seen these statements before, they don't actually state anything in a way that is clear or absolute. Saying something and nothing at the same time. It's just the same sort of fuzzy stuff as always, it just makes things way less clear than the lore that exists solely in the core media. The implications of one entity mantling another entity are entirely unclear and likely to remain that way because it gives the developers a lot of freedom to do whatever they want.

 

Has Alduin always been Akatosh or did he mantle him?

Did Akatosh create Alduin? If he did, can he unmake him even if Alduin has mantled him? Would this cause a dragon break?

Did Anu create Akatosh who created Alduin each mantling their own creator?

What's it mean if you mantle an entity that has itself mantled a different entity?

What happens when two conflicting entities mantle the same other entity?

When one entity mantles another, to what extent do the become the same entity? Is the mantling constant/permanent?

How do dragon breaks really play in to all this weird stuff? Do they create alternate time streams or can only one exist?

 

This is the part of the lore where all discussion pretty much breaks down. When you start getting in to not linear time and entities not bound by the ordinary rules of existence it just gets way too weird. Since dragon breaks are by there nature hard to detect, they could be happening constantly in Mundus. It's pretty much multiverse theory, you may notice some sort of discepancy (or not) but what do you attribute it to? Do you go straight to that?

 

Alduin's body may not exist on Nirn but it is in Sovngarde, which is a part of Aetherius, which is a part of Mundus that can be accessed in various ways by various sorts of entities. It may be hard to raise him but there's no reason to think it can't be done by an entity sufficiently powerful that may have a reason to do so, of which there are many.

Edited August 22, 2012 by ClonePatrol

[JimS61]

 

For me the bottom line is simply this. Let the Blades die out with Delphine and Esbern. Historically, they've served the Septim line of Emperors. There won't be any more of those.

 

Not even that really. Martin Septim and the Septim line died at the end of the Third Era, just over two-hundred years before the events of Skyrim. Delphine and Esbern are both humans and until the events of Skyrim they never would have known or had to serve under a dragonborn in their entire lives, and they'd most certainly have never killed or even seen a dragon themselves either. Their experience at being Blades would be largely limited to their martial training, their having read through books of the Blades lore, and their searching for a Dragonborn. Delphine only came into contact with the Dragonborn because she had taken the Horn of Jurgen Windcaller assuming it to be something the Dragonborn would retrieve for the Greybeards eventually. Something that would have pissed most of the Dragonborn's I've played off immensely, only not killing her because the game didn't allow it.

 

 

I hear you....that really irked me....My Dragonborn retrieved the 'Horn' as an already very un-impressed man with Delphine, but held it together long enough for her to do some explaining....game doesn't allow him to draw his sword when she arrogantly assumes she could have killed him the instant he entered the tavern if she didn't like the look of him....that is not a good pitch when your attempting to earn someones ears and trust.... :down: ....and then goes on to tell him that he MUST prove himself to her....a complete stranger who has already done her utmost to p*ss him off....at that stage my Dragonborn told her to go take a long walk off a short jetty and left....Only went back much later in the game to complete the Main Quest because there is no other choice available....I hate that there are no other options.

 

I had to burst out laughing the first time I got around to doing that quest and she made that comment about how I shouldn't have come there if I didn't trust her and killing my Dovah. At the beginning of the game I'd taken off towards Falkreath and pretty much never gone to Riverwood before except to speak to Hadvar's uncle (which I waited quite a while to do). When I was talking to her I was a vampire wearing a full set of Nightingale Armor and dual-wielding the Mace of Molag Bal (which guards can freak out at the sight of) along with Dawnbreaker, and had arrived at the Inn with Cicero from the Dark Brotherhood and the dog Vigilance after riding in to town on Shadowmere. I think I also had the Spectre of Lucien Lachance summoned, not sure though. I couldn't help but feel it should be pretty obvious that I could take out the entire town if I felt like it, and that if she really doubted that I was Dragonborn the Whiterun Guards outside could probably vouch for me since they were sent there around the same time I killed Mirmulnir and they can comment on it.

 

 

LOL... :laugh: ...I love it....would have liked to have seen that..... :biggrin: .....Delphine certainly has some very delusional tickets on herself.... :D .....Mine wasn't quite as dramatic as yours... :happy: ....I play a Nord with a Height Adjusted Races Mod, so as a Breton she is tiny and I also have my Nord Man console set to Altmer height with max weight slide....suffice to say, his one big man.....she looks absolutely tiny beside him....him bristling with some rather impressive weapons of his own (not Daedric, but impressive none the less) and did I forget to mention his Snowy Sabre Cat companion?.... :P ....And there's this miniscule big mouth woman popping out with that line....My face.... :blink:

[JimS61]

Every one seems to forget that you can't trust Delphine's or Esbern's opinions any way. How do you know they're right about dragons? Dragons didn't even exist in their world until the Dovahkiin showed up but the Greybeards did exist and they're both totally wrong about the Greybeards.

 

They said the Greybeards were afraid of power but if so then why are they masters of the shouts?

They said the Greybeards were afarid of you but if they were would they have trained you to use your powers? Would they have told you your welcome to come back any time you want to return?

They said the Greybeards wanted you to ignore your destiny and just sit on their mountain and pray to the sky and do nothing else when the Greybeards actually told you to go out into the world and find your destiny.

 

They were totally wrong about the Greybeards who do live in their world so how can we be sure they're right about dragons when they didn't live in their world.

 

If they can be 100% wrong about today's world I'm not about to trust their "knowledge" of the world that was a few thousand years ago.

Edited August 22, 2012 by JimS61

[sajuukkhar9000]

I've seen these statements before, they don't actually state anything in a way that is clear or absolute. Saying something and nothing at the same time. It's just the same sort of fuzzy stuff as always, it just makes things way less clear than the lore that exists solely in the core media. The implications of one entity mantling another entity are entirely unclear and likely to remain that way because it gives the developers a lot of freedom to do whatever they want.

 

Has Alduin always been Akatosh or did he mantle him?

Did Akatosh create Alduin? If he did, can he unmake him even if Alduin has mantled him? Would this cause a dragon break?

Did Anu create Akatosh who created Alduin each mantling their own creator?

What's it mean if you mantle an entity that has itself mantled a different entity?

What happens when two conflicting entities mantle the same other entity?

When one entity mantles another, to what extent do the become the same entity? Is the mantling constant/permanent?

How do dragon breaks really play in to all this weird stuff? Do they create alternate time streams or can only one exist?

 

This is the part of the lore where all discussion pretty much breaks down. When you start getting in to not linear time and entities not bound by the ordinary rules of existence it just gets way too weird. Since dragon breaks are by there nature hard to detect, they could be happening constantly in Mundus. It's pretty much multiverse theory, you may notice some sort of discepancy (or not) but what do you attribute it to? Do you go straight to that?

 

Alduin's body may not exist on Nirn but it is in Sovngarde, which is a part of Aetherius, which is a part of Mundus that can be accessed in various ways by various sorts of entities. It may be hard to raise him but there's no reason to think it can't be done by an entity sufficiently powerful that may have a reason to do so, of which there are many.

Shor son of Shor

Aka son of Aka

Ald son of Ald

 

Akatosh created Alduin, who created Auri-El, who created Alkosh, who created Tosh Raka, who created Aruiel, who created Akatosh. They are each-other's fathers and each-others sons.

 

Furthermore, Kirkbride's statements about mantling were about the humans that mantled the time dragon forming a new one. He wasn't talking about the dragons mantling each-other, because you cant mantel yourself.

 

 

Also Alduin's body disappears even in Sovengarde. so no, his body isn't there either.

Edited August 22, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[JimS61]

Just reminding people that only the dragonborn can permanently kill dragons, he doesn't become useless after he defeats Alduin.

That is entirely incorrect.

 

The Dovahkiin in the only person who can take the souls of Dragons, making them unable to be resurrected. Any average Joe can kill a dragon, but as long as it still has its soul Alduin can bring it back.

 

However, with the defeat of Alduin by the Dovahkiin, the one and only dragon that is known to be able to resurrect Dragons, is gone.

 

If you pay attention, when you time travel back to the Dragon War, you can see MANY dead dragons who haven't had their soul taken, they still have their flesh and everything, because there was no Dragonborn during the time of the Dragon War to take their souls.

 

The only dragon that needed a special person to kill was Alduin, only because he is Akatosh.

Where did the idea that Alduin is really Akatosh come from?

I heard and saw nothing about it in the game and it doesn't say any thing like that in the very thick Skyrim Official Game Guide either.

 

Every thing I've heard and read simply said that Alduin was the oldest and the first dragon created by Akatosh, not that he was Akatosh.

Though he prefers to "appear" as a dragon when he does choose to show himself.

 

Plus if Alduim really was Akatosh then he would be a God and wouldn't need to devour the souls of the honored dead for strength. A God is by nature completely indestructable and cannot be defeated or beaten by any one or any thing, not even by a Dovahkiin.

[JimS61]

Alduin brought back the other dragons by a Thu'um. This Thu'um can be learned (like Dragonrend) or reinvented.

Considering no other Dragon is known to possess that Thu'um, despite them having been alive for ages, it is safe to say the "bring a dragon back to life" Thu'um is something only Alduin had, or could have.

 

If any Dragon could possess it the Dragon War wouldn't make sense.

 

Why? Dovahkiin is a person, and like any other person he is able to choose his own goals. Even after killing Alduin.

And yet, the Dovahkiin is longer important as a Dovahkiin, his purpose has been served, as a mortal he can do whatever he wants, as a Dovahkin hes useless.

 

Vice versa. That's why I don't know how to answer the initial question. I mean, what's the point of rebuilding the Blades anyway? BTW, in the Third Era they were more an intelligence than anything else. So since I side with the Stormcloaks (almost every time), I see no need to rebuild the Blades anyway, for my characters, at least.

The Blades are expert Dragon killers who know ancient magics that allow people to hunt Dragons with ease.

 

Alduin brought back countless Dragons during the time he was alive, having people go off and kill them independently is a lot less effective then having an order of warrior whose sole job is to hunt dragons, and who have detailed knowledge of dragons, and their weaknesses.

The original Blades were expert dragon slayers but Delphine and Esbern are the only two Blades left alive and they ARE NOT EXPERTS.

Esbern has NEVER even seen a dragon and Delphine has only seen one, the dragon at Kynesgrove, so neither of them are any where near being experts.

Edited August 24, 2012 by JimS61