sajuukkhar9000 Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 (edited) I do wonder how they managed to obtain that the two elder scrolls that show up during dawnguard though...the answer to that question is rather easy. They obtained the Elder Scrolls the same way the ancient nord heroes who fought Alduin did, and the same way you did. They were destiny bound to have them, and thus the scrolls appeared in a place for them to have them. You have to remember, the Elder Scrolls are sentient beings, they can think for themselves, and much like the very powerful magical artifacts, can chose who find them, and how long said person keeps them. Edited August 29, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 I do wonder how they managed to obtain that the two elder scrolls that show up during dawnguard though...the answer to that question is rather easy. They obtained the Elder Scrolls the same way the ancient nord heroes who fought Alduin did, and the same way you did. They were destiny bound to have them, and thus the scrolls appeared in a place for them to have them. You have to remember, the Elder Scrolls are sentient beings, they can think for themselves, and much like the very powerful magical artifacts, can chose who find them, and how long said person keeps them. Elder Scrolls also have a propensity fo 'go missing'. Whether this implies theft, or an actual ability to move around at will (considering the nature and power of the scrolls, it's not that unlikely) remains something of a mystery, though given the destiny dynamic of the scrolls in general, it's something of an irrelivent point. They simply turn up when they are needed, with whom ever needs them. Even if they were just magic scrolls, one has to remember that, while it contains many, the library in the Imperial City doesn't have ALL the scrolls.There are hundreds, if not thousands of Elder Scrolls, each just as likely to record (and predict) world changing events like the Akiviri invasion and the Warp in the West as they are the life of Joe the Shephard, who dies of an infection after stubbing his toe. The things, quite literally, record anything and everything that has happened or will happen. Such a saga requires many volumes, and i wouldn't be surprised if the library only has a small fraction of the Elder Scrolls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya1997 Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 I do wonder how they managed to obtain that the two elder scrolls that show up during dawnguard though...the answer to that question is rather easy. They obtained the Elder Scrolls the same way the ancient nord heroes who fought Alduin did, and the same way you did. They were destiny bound to have them, and thus the scrolls appeared in a place for them to have them. You have to remember, the Elder Scrolls are sentient beings, they can think for themselves, and much like the very powerful magical artifacts, can chose who find them, and how long said person keeps them. Elder Scrolls also have a propensity fo 'go missing'. Whether this implies theft, or an actual ability to move around at will (considering the nature and power of the scrolls, it's not that unlikely) remains something of a mystery, though given the destiny dynamic of the scrolls in general, it's something of an irrelivent point. They simply turn up when they are needed, with whom ever needs them. Even if they were just magic scrolls, one has to remember that, while it contains many, the library in the Imperial City doesn't have ALL the scrolls.There are hundreds, if not thousands of Elder Scrolls, each just as likely to record (and predict) world changing events like the Akiviri invasion and the Warp in the West as they are the life of Joe the Shephard, who dies of an infection after stubbing his toe. The things, quite literally, record anything and everything that has happened or will happen. Such a saga requires many volumes, and i wouldn't be surprised if the library only has a small fraction of the Elder Scrolls. Interesting stuff. It does make the setting sound rather depressing though as from what I understand of the things you two say, there is no way to deviate from destiny, which means technically speaking there is no free will. Or perhaps I'm just reading too much into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Interesting stuff. It does make the setting sound rather depressing though as from what I understand of the things you two say, there is no way to deviate from destiny, which means technically speaking there is no free will. Or perhaps I'm just reading too much into it. Certian special individuals (All the PC's, and a select few NPC's such as Vivec, Whitesnake, Talos etc) have free will to a limited extent. They are the one who, with the mantle of destiny, decide which direction the world will take at certian important moments. The Dovahkiin, for instance, is responsible for deciding whether the world ends or continues during the return of Alduin. Some people do have a choice, and some more than others. The more choices there are (Daggerfall) the messier things become. By and large, though, there is no choice, though it is possible for even the common rabble to trancend to the realm of absolute free will by acheiving CHIM, even if its highly unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya1997 Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Interesting stuff. It does make the setting sound rather depressing though as from what I understand of the things you two say, there is no way to deviate from destiny, which means technically speaking there is no free will. Or perhaps I'm just reading too much into it. Certian special individuals (All the PC's, and a select few NPC's such as Vivec, Whitesnake, Talos etc) have free will to a limited extent. They are the one who, with the mantle of destiny, decide which direction the world will take at certian important moments. The Dovahkiin, for instance, is responsible for deciding whether the world ends or continues during the return of Alduin. Some people do have a choice, and some more than others. The more choices there are (Daggerfall) the messier things become. By and large, though, there is no choice, though it is possible for even the common rabble to trancend to the realm of absolute free will by acheiving CHIM, even if its highly unlikely. Uh.... CHIM? Heard the term thrown around, but it's never been very well explained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Essentially, the whole of the Elder Scrolls takes place within the dreaming mind of a god. Those who realise this, and don't pop out of existance because of the logical inconsistancy (I exist in the world, the world doesn't exist, thus i don't exist) are able to control reality at will, acting as lucid dreamers in someone elses dream. HOW you keep from zero-summing (popping out of existance) is a very long arguement, and the actual nature of CHIM is much more complicated, but thats essentially the cliffs notes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrettM Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 So the existence of anything is merely a thought in the dream of a god? Bingo! God thinks, therefore I am. CHIM courtesy of Descarte. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsmanners Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Elder Scrolls = convenient deus ex machina (for when their badly thought-out plots start contradicting themselves). It is worrisome that they have you juggling not one but three of those bad boys in DG. It bespeaks some truly horrific plotting, though I gather that the character development is still moderately acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Elder Scrolls = convenient deus ex machina (for when their badly thought-out plots start contradicting themselves). It is worrisome that they have you juggling not one but three of those bad boys in DG. It bespeaks some truly horrific plotting, though I gather that the character development is still moderately acceptable. While i agree that they are concenient deus ex machina components in the world, i don't feel you can instantly assume anything involved with them is poor plot writing. The Scrolls themselves are at once characters and symbols within the world, and the game. They serve as physical representations of destiny and the importance of the PC in the progression of the world and the story. The Scrolls themselves give a literal representation of what, in most games, is left completely to the imagination, hinted at or skirted around. By having the Scrolls, and interacting with them, the story leaves no room for interpretation as to whether destiny plays a part in the world. The only time they have been, even remotely, used as an easy out for bad writing was in learning Dragonrend, and even thats debatable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsmanners Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 It is a rule of thumb, I admit: always avoid the dreaded deus ex machina. The reason it's dreaded is not just because it usually accompanies a poorly thought-out plot, but also because it's a cliche that goes back many thousands of years, and cliches (again as a general rule) are best avoided. Speaking of Dragonrend and the Elder Scroll, I'm wondering why the PC can't just send Alduin forward in time again the same way Felldir the Old (and clever) does. I say, hey. Out of sight, out of mind. Not my problem. Would have been a nice option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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