I made a 50-word bug report; the mod creator gave me a 3000-word reply

[brump]

It is the Amazing Follower Tweak, one of the mod that edits follower functionality.

I reported a bug in the comment section of this mod, saying that my follower Illia gets random jump in stats etc etc.

 

 

 

 

AND THEN this guy sent me a PM explaining his situation. A long PM. A 3000-word PM. No I was kidding I don't know how many words there are.

But here it is, in case you are patient enough to hear his words.

 

 

 

 

 

 

When I made AFT, one of the first things I implemented was the INFO methods. And then in play testing, I realized that my followers were not leveling up with me. They leveled up 1 time when I first met them and then their stats, etc... never changed. So I decided to add level up to AFT.

 

Now, the GetInfo console method you use shows you a lot of cool stuff: base value, temporary and permanent modifiers, etc... But from papyrus, I can only request the current value of a stat. I have no idea how it is derived. In fact, I dont even know what the followers class is. If health is reporting 500, it may be that the user installed a mod that boosts health on all NPCs. Or maybe the npc is wearing heavily enchanted armor or maybe they drank a potion or maybe they are under the effect of a spell. But from papyrus, I dont know any of that. All I know is that their current health is 500.

 

So, I designed aft to use a very cautious approach to level up. I compute the mimum values for health/magicka/stamina and skills that the follower should have at a given level and I only increase the followers stats if those values are not being met. When boost is disabled, followers get 300 points to play with at level 1 and then an additional 10 points for each level. So for example, at level 20, I may compute the minimum stats for your fighter should be (225/225/50). I will only increase their stats if their current values are lower. If the current values are higher, I do nothing.

 

Because papyrus doesnt tell me what the real stats are, it is not perfect. For example, if your follower is under the affect of a spell, potion or armor enchantment that is altering their stats when they level up, aft will base its computations on inaccurate values. However, for the most part, when bugs manifest, they tend to result in inflated stats (since I generally do not decrease stats). Very rarely do bugs result in stats that are too low.

 

That said, Mage NPCs like Illia tend to be less predictable as they are often under the effect of spell buffs when they level up. But that still shouldn't result in a permanent negative modifier.

 

Now there are situations where I lower or "Reset" the followers stats. When you:

 

1) Enable/disable the level boost.

2) Change the followers combat style

3) Transform the follower into a werewolf of vampire

 

Under these situations, I force the followers stats back to their original values (when they first joined you... ) and then I recompute their minimums and update the stats based on the players current level. These are the only three situations where I lower the values. Most of these should be fairly rare events with the exception of werewolf change,. Werewolf transformation actually changes your followers RACE, at which point Skyrim resets their stats anyway. So I have no choice but to rebuild their stats when they transform back and forth. The upside is that werewolves tend to transform so ofren that any oddities in the stats tend to get trumped pretty quickly.

 

At the end of the day... it is not perfect. However, it is SOMETHING. And that is nice when vanilla skyrim gives you nothing. I also dont mind the minor bugs. I like the fact that the system isn't completely predictable.

 

There are two other things I will mention. The first is that there is a rumor that one of the more recent skyrim patches "fixed" the level up system for NPCs. If that is true, AFT's level up system may be competing with the games native level up system and that may be causing extremely odd values and unusual fluctuations. This weekend I am going to do some testing and if I find this is true, I may do away with AFTs leveling system, or more likley make it an option that is disabled by default. I'm actually kind of hoping it is fixed. The fewer things my mod has to do/manage, the fewer bugs I can get blamed for.

 

Which brings me to the second thing: Skyrim has a lot of bugs. Most of them are hidden from normal users. But when you install a mod (like aft) that lets you view info about your followers, you suddenly become aware of the bugs. It is common to assume it is the mod authors fault, but more often times than not... it is actually a bug with skyrim.

 

For example, NPCs do not benefit from enchanted armor/weapons if you have created them yourself. The masses didn't even know this bug existed until mods like this one made them aware of the fact that the NPC's fire resistance wasn't changing when they put that custom made fire resistant helment on. But I got lots of complaints from users telling me MY mod broke because the enchantments weren't working. I am just the messenger.

 

And so you should be aware that there are similar bugs that can cause the odd behaviors you are seeing in Illia. Many Shouts, traps and even a few spells are marked with constant effect markers which cause them to never wear off on NPCs. So for example, the Mark Of Death shout you learn from the Dark Brotherhood can cause your followers Armor Rating to take a permanent -1000 hit if you ever accidently hit them with the shout in combat. Some enemy drauger also shout and I dont know what kind of permanent effects thier shouts may have on your followers. Or Illia may have hit a trap (either set off by her or you) that permanently altered one of her stats. There are a number of bugs and ways that your followers stats can get permanently altered that have nothing to do with AFT's leveling system.

 

I am not saying that AFT's leveling system doesn't have some quirks and bugs of its own, but just bear in mind that bug free mods are basically impossible given the number of bugs you get for free with skyrim."

 

 

 

I was speechless.

 

I must admit that this guy has heart. Maybe the same goes to many other modders here. You all have my respect.

Edited September 8, 2012 by brump

[littleork]

I actually like those kinds of modders and I try to be the same, they are willing to explain to you why a bug happens and why it can't be fixed.

 

 

* just bear in mind that bug free mods are basically impossible given the number of bugs you get for free with skyrim.*

 

I think a lot of users forget that, some things that they will see as a bug from a mod can also be because Skyrim itself is bugged. I always get a little frustrated when I get a comment about how they won't try a mod unless it's bug-frees, bugs is part of skyrim so there is good chances that it will be part of mods, if everybody was like that, no mods would be ever tested.

 

I like an user that will find ways to work around the problem instead of complaining about little issues they have(of course it's another thing when they are big issues)

 

Of course that is my opinion.

Edited September 8, 2012 by littleork

[Staind716]

Has my respect. Taking the time to explain all that shows he cares enough to try to help.

[AlexanderJVelicky]

Wow, it's really good to hear that some people actually like those replies! My replies usually end up being fairly lengthy and explanatory like that, so I'm glad people don't just all ignore them. :P It is indeed very difficult to keep your mod bug free, due to the nature of the game, but hopefully we can all still try our best to make them as bug free as possible. :)

[gsmanners]

Actually, that was only 1040 words.

[Deleted3507349User]

"For example, NPCs do not benefit from enchanted armor/weapons if you have created them yourself."

 

Seriously?!? That explains a lot....

[gsmanners]

Oh yeah. NPCs are gimped like you wouldn't believe. The only way an NPC gets elemental resist at all is if they are scripted to have it. The only AV that actually helps an NPC in my experience is Health. Now, if you have spectacular Smithing, your outrageously high AR armor will help NPCs quite a bit. Just don't count on exotic stuff like enchantments to work.