Defining Balance

[leron9999]

Hey guys!

 

I'm a semi-experienced modder, and I'm currently in the process of updating my Spell Combos mod. At the moment, the mod's biggest issue is balance. I've nerfed the damage as much as I could, but it's still pretty OP. So I'm asking the good people here on the Nexus for advice on how to balance a mod. So, what makes a spell mod balanced, but still fun and usable? Adequate damage? A hefty magicka cost? Remove the stagger effect? Add a cooldown timer maybe? I'd appreciate some suggestions guys!

[Vandrath]

Im currently working on balancing combat encounters in my mod. Balance depends on the mechanics of each ability or class when they are on opposing sides. Think about the current spell you are working on and think about what its uses are against certain classes such as archers or mages. Most foes in skyrim (save bosses) are 4-8 hits to kill depending on what difficulty you play on. I would say you have to take into account the type of spell you are using, what class you play, your current foe, playstyle etc. I think your idea to add cooldown timers is a great one. if you have an ability that takes over half of any given foes health per hit then a cooldown timer is perfect. You could also re work a spell to deal a random% of damage based on any factor (skill lvl, armor rating, current equipped weapon damage). In the end, Skyrims mechanics make for quick encounters most of the time.

I would make spells with stagger effects do way less damage then spells without stagger simply because there is less hit time for the foe when staggered (if they are melee). If the spell does a lot of damage then the sacrifice is control. If all your spells have a certain level of give and take then the player will have to use different spells and therefore tailor their own playstyle. For most of us that = fun.

Every single combat possibility can effect the viability of your spell against a certain class.

Edited October 11, 2012 by Vandrath

[leron9999]

Whoa, those ideas are awesome! Thanks a lot!

[EnaiSiaion]

Hey guys!

 

I'm a semi-experienced modder, and I'm currently in the process of updating my Spell Combos mod. At the moment, the mod's biggest issue is balance. I've nerfed the damage as much as I could, but it's still pretty OP. So I'm asking the good people here on the Nexus for advice on how to balance a mod. So, what makes a spell mod balanced, but still fun and usable? Adequate damage? A hefty magicka cost? Remove the stagger effect? Add a cooldown timer maybe? I'd appreciate some suggestions guys!

 

A spell is balanced if there is still a reason to use the counterpart from the classic game. Adding more options always increases power unless the added options are strictly worse, but if there is still a situation (even a rare one) where the regular spells are best, then the mod is balanced.

 

I do have some balance issues with Apocalypse but they are almost all related to spells that "just increase power" (ie buffs with no drawback). These should be kept to a minimum because they add power without gameplay: all you do is cast them and get an easier game. Spells that are very strong but also have a high skill cap are fine.

 

Magicka cost is almost irrelevant, both literally (-100% cost enchants on items) and because running out of mana is usually not actionable. You always use the spells that kill enemies the fastest without running out of mana; if you do run out of mana when using a particular spell, then that spell is unusable. Balancing spells through magicka cost results in binary balance where your power spell is not viable until you have X mana (or the enemies have less than Y health) in which case you can afford the spell and it becomes overpowered again. Magicka cost is especially irrelevant for buffs and summoning spells because you can cast them before you enter combat.

 

On a related note, limited duration on buffs is also a lame penalty. It just forces you to recast them every few seconds, which does not actually reduce their power (recasting takes only half a second) but adds a ton of annoying spell swapping.

 

Always try to make spells weak when simply spammed in the direction of enemies, but reward player skill. In Apocalypse you can pull off tricks like casting Teleport at a distant point, and casting Swap and Magnetize just before the teleport goes through. You teleport, then Swap resolves and places you back and the target all the way over, then Magnetize deals damage based on how far the target moved. Boom. But this requires a high level of micro and timing and you had better be able to instakill things when you pull it off.

[leron9999]

Ah, that's some pretty good insight! That bit on player skill is particularly interesting. I'll keep those tips in mind for the next update as I attempt to balance out my mod. Thanks a lot!

[EnaiSiaion]

Addendum: It is easy to get caught up in what a spell looks like or is supposed to represent, but gameplay should always come first followed by graphics (you wouldn't be able to tell from all the ENB configs on the Nexus though!). For instance:

 

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• A spell that "conjures swords from a magic circle, levitates them and launches them at the enemy" is effectively the same as "Firebolt", giving it an added value of zero. Either this or Firebolt will be useless depending on magicka cost and damage so you are not expanding the pool of viable spells, you are just replacing one.
  
• A spell that "increases melee damage based on alteration skill level" translates into "cast this before a fight to make it easier". The actual effect on gameplay is that you have to annoyingly cast a spell before you fight, and if you do that then the game becomes easier. You are trading free power for annoyance. This is awful.
  
• Specialty undead/daedra/humanoid hosers tend to be either overpowered when fighting against those enemies and/or useless against other enemies, unless you can regularly find both the enemy type they affect and an enemy type they don't affect in the same encounter (ie atronachs). This is a bad way to balance a spell.
  

[acidzebra]

A spell that "conjures swords from a magic circle, levitates them and launches them at the enemy" is effectively the same as "Firebolt", giving it an added value of zero. Either this or Firebolt will be useless depending on magicka cost and damage so you are not expanding the pool of viable spells, you are just replacing one.

 

I agree with much of what you wrote, and even this point to a degree, but for the fact that a little variety never hurts and when role-playing gives you more of a choice (not to mention you could add some uniqueness like "ignore X% of armor" like fireball has "sets on fire" and ice thingies have "saps stamina").

 

This is a fascinating thread, thanks.

Edited October 12, 2012 by acidzebra