Spoilers from beta 1.8

[ginnyfizz]

And Stemin and sajjuukhaar9000 seem to be missing the point that it is not always mods that cause bugs, totally ignoring the fact that I replicated a pretty giant Dawnguard bug on a totally vanilla install on a totally different machine.. I did this specifically to exclude the possibility of a mod conflict/bug and did it with a vanilla race of course since there were no mods in. I then raised a support ticket politely giving the facts. Bethesda themselves acknowledged the bug as a known issue (so it cannot just have been me) in writing to me and have proceeded to do nothing about it.

 

If no-one ever talked about the problems with the game, that would allow Bethesda to think that they are perfect and that they need do nothing. And whether or not folks spend some hours on the game does not exclude them from the right to complain when it bugs out on them. I spend a lot of time on the internet, but that did not make my telephone company refuse to replace my router when the connection started dropping more than I felt was acceptable. (It is much better now so the equipment clearly was faulty.) With Skyrim, it is kind of worrying when you check what to clean with TES5Edit and the official plugins are top of the list of dirty plugins. Kind of leans to what slainia and I have been saying about careless QA.

 

Edit - the Waking Nightmare bug is now being reported by users on the official forums. Time to bookmark the UESP Wiki page with the quest stages...

[Stemin]

And Stemin and sajjuukhaar9000 seem to be missing the point that it is not always mods that cause bugs, totally ignoring the fact that I replicated a pretty giant Dawnguard bug on a totally vanilla install on a totally different machine.. I did this specifically to exclude the possibility of a mod conflict/bug and did it with a vanilla race of course since there were no mods in. I then raised a support ticket politely giving the facts. Bethesda themselves acknowledged the bug as a known issue (so it cannot just have been me) in writing to me and have proceeded to do nothing about it.

 

And you're ignoring the fact that I said multiple times, the STOCK game is getting pretty bug free. I also mentioned at least once that they haven't addressed the DLC's much yet.

 

 

If no-one ever talked about the problems with the game, that would allow Bethesda to think that they are perfect and that they need do nothing. And whether or not folks spend some hours on the game does not exclude them from the right to complain when it bugs out on them. I spend a lot of time on the internet, but that did not make my telephone company refuse to replace my router when the connection started dropping more than I felt was acceptable. (It is much better now so the equipment clearly was faulty.) With Skyrim, it is kind of worrying when you check what to clean with TES5Edit and the official plugins are top of the list of dirty plugins. Kind of leans to what slainia and I have been saying about careless QA.

 

Edit - the Waking Nightmare bug is now being reported by users on the official forums. Time to bookmark the UESP Wiki page with the quest stages...

 

Yeah, you've made it clear before that you feel that complaining is your duty. Unfortunately my counter argument hasn't changed. There's a difference between reporting a bug and complaining. There's a difference between riding a topic into the ground and discussing something.

 

If I produced something for the general public and all they did was complain that would not motivate me to make it better, that would motivate me to stop wasting my time on people who clearly don't appreciate what I'm trying to do. Now if someone came to me and said, "I love your product, but I wish it could do this..." we might start getting on the same page. I have yet to see you say anything positive about Skyrim on these boards and I can't help but wonder why you bother to play at all.

 

EDIT: And after coming home from work today and fussing with 3ds max for a while I decided to open the CK, and low and behold, an update. After launching I loaded up the Skyrim.esm, Dawnguard, update, and hearthfire along with the one single mod I use (self created) and it fired right up.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Stemin

[modder3434]

And Stemin and sajjuukhaar9000 seem to be missing the point that it is not always mods that cause bugs, totally ignoring the fact that I replicated a pretty giant Dawnguard bug on a totally vanilla install on a totally different machine.. I did this specifically to exclude the possibility of a mod conflict/bug and did it with a vanilla race of course since there were no mods in. I then raised a support ticket politely giving the facts. Bethesda themselves acknowledged the bug as a known issue (so it cannot just have been me) in writing to me and have proceeded to do nothing about it.

 

And you're ignoring the fact that I said multiple times, the STOCK game is getting pretty bug free. I also mentioned at least once that they haven't addressed the DLC's much yet.

 

 

If no-one ever talked about the problems with the game, that would allow Bethesda to think that they are perfect and that they need do nothing. And whether or not folks spend some hours on the game does not exclude them from the right to complain when it bugs out on them. I spend a lot of time on the internet, but that did not make my telephone company refuse to replace my router when the connection started dropping more than I felt was acceptable. (It is much better now so the equipment clearly was faulty.) With Skyrim, it is kind of worrying when you check what to clean with TES5Edit and the official plugins are top of the list of dirty plugins. Kind of leans to what slainia and I have been saying about careless QA.

 

Edit - the Waking Nightmare bug is now being reported by users on the official forums. Time to bookmark the UESP Wiki page with the quest stages...

 

Yeah, you've made it clear before that you feel that complaining is your duty. Unfortunately my counter argument hasn't changed. There's a difference between reporting a bug and complaining. There's a difference between riding a topic into the ground and discussing something.

 

If I produced something for the general public and all they did was complain that would not motivate me to make it better, that would motivate me to stop wasting my time on people who clearly don't appreciate what I'm trying to do. Now if someone came to me and said, "I love your product, but I wish it could do this..." we might start getting on the same page. I have yet to see you say anything positive about Skyrim on these boards and I can't help but wonder why you bother to play at all.

 

EDIT: And after coming home from work today and fussing with 3ds max for a while I decided to open the CK, and low and behold, an update. After launching I loaded up the Skyrim.esm, Dawnguard, update, and hearthfire along with the one single mod I use (self created) and it fired right up.

 

congrats to you! you seem to be one of Bethesda's chosen few, whom everything works out for.

 

If you've been to the tech support forum, then you'll know it is not just a few people with bugs but a lot of them, and i don't mean mod conflicts [although a few of them are] it is mostly issues that come down to Dawnguard bugs plus a crappy buggy patch which doesn't help.

 

And it really irritates me to no end when i spend time to help solve someone's issue and it comes back to a bug that none of us can fix, since we don't have all the tools that Bethesda does.

[ginnyfizz]

I agree modder3434, and like you I always consider the possibility of a mod conflict, that is not something that you can hold Beth to account for. But a lot of the bugs are appearing on unmodded installs, as they did for me when I did the check install on my laptop, and as you point out, the instances are not isolated. A lot of folk are affected. And if the bug is in something that is hardcoded and we can't get at it with the CK, not even those great guys in the Unofficial Patch team can fix it.

[ArtMurder]

Am I slow to the game here?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4Xh2UzNmfM < New DLC?

[Stemin]

congrats to you! you seem to be one of Bethesda's chosen few, whom everything works out for.

 

No, I'm not a "chosen few." I'm just someone who happens to enjoy the stock game.

 

If you've been to the tech support forum, then you'll know it is not just a few people with bugs but a lot of them, and i don't mean mod conflicts [although a few of them are] it is mostly issues that come down to Dawnguard bugs plus a crappy buggy patch which doesn't help.

 

And it really irritates me to no end when i spend time to help solve someone's issue and it comes back to a bug that none of us can fix, since we don't have all the tools that Bethesda does.

 

You know why I don't bother with the troubleshooting forum? Because the majority of the time I see someone list a bug it almost always comes back to mods. They start out claiming they're basically running a stock setup, but then when you start pressing them, they admit that oh... well they are running this mod and that mod, but they never had a problem with them before, yadda yadda.

 

It's also pretty well documented that you have to really know what you're doing to uninstall the software and start over because there's a lot of config files that get filed under windows UAC or Steam's backup files (something people are apparently offended by to begin with, because casual gamers are horrible people and Bethesda isn't allowed to be a real company and have to answer to copyrights or worry about the payroll it would require to develop two different versions of the game for their main audience and people who want to be able to adjust and customize everything :rolleyes: ) So maybe you aren't running mods now, but that doesn't mean you didn't at some point and something is still floating around.

 

I'm not even willing to have this debate with you. We'll just have to agree to disagree, because I don't trust that anyone is actually running a stock setup on a modding forum to claim that they have a "stock" bug. And like I said above, I was not making any claims about Dawnguard. I was talking about the stock game.

 

I also seem to have a great deal more patience than the average person. A little slow down now and then doesn't bother me. Stuff in my quest journal that shouldn't be doesn't bother me. Stuff that people claim "ruins immersion" (God I DESPISE that word) doesn't bother me. So what if I can't drop Gallus's journal, and I don't see a problem with the UI because I use a 360 controller like the game was developed for. I guess I'm just a lot more open minded than the average gamer.

Edited November 8, 2012 by Stemin

[modder3434]

congrats to you! you seem to be one of Bethesda's chosen few, whom everything works out for.

 

No, I'm not a "chosen few." I'm just someone who happens to enjoy the stock game.

 

If you've been to the tech support forum, then you'll know it is not just a few people with bugs but a lot of them, and i don't mean mod conflicts [although a few of them are] it is mostly issues that come down to Dawnguard bugs plus a crappy buggy patch which doesn't help.

 

And it really irritates me to no end when i spend time to help solve someone's issue and it comes back to a bug that none of us can fix, since we don't have all the tools that Bethesda does.

 

You know why I don't bother with the troubleshooting forum? Because the majority of the time I see someone list a bug it almost always comes back to mods. They start out claiming they're basically running a stock setup, but then when you start pressing them, they admit that oh... well they are running this mod and that mod, but they never had a problem with them before, yadda yadda.

 

It's also pretty well documented that you have to really know what you're doing to uninstall the software and start over because there's a lot of config files that get filed under windows UAC or Steam's backup files (something people are apparently offended by to begin with, because casual gamers are horrible people and Bethesda isn't allowed to be a real company and have to answer to copyrights or worry about the payroll it would require to develop two different versions of the game for their main audience and people who want to be able to adjust and customize everything :rolleyes: ) So maybe you aren't running mods now, but that doesn't mean you didn't at some point and something is still floating around.

 

I'm not even willing to have this debate with you. We'll just have to agree to disagree, because I don't trust that anyone is actually running a stock setup on a modding forum to claim that they have a "stock" bug. And like I said above, I was not making any claims about Dawnguard. I was talking about the stock game.

 

I also seem to have a great deal more patience than the average person. A little slow down now and then doesn't bother me. Stuff in my quest journal that shouldn't be doesn't bother me. Stuff that people claim "ruins immersion" (God I DESPISE that word) doesn't bother me. So what if I can't drop Gallus's journal, and I don't see a problem with the UI because I use a 360 controller like the game was developed for. I guess I'm just a lot more open minded than the average gamer.

 

Ok i agree that some people reporting issues do have some stuff floating around, which is why i tell them to completely remove the mods from their files, not just uncheck a box. Yes the vanilla, vanilla version of the game is more or less "bug-free" then it was, and yes i know that stock , means the game that came out of the box, however when Bethesda realizes a DLC, "patches" it and then continues to pump out more DLC [i don't have a problem with new content].

 

then i count the DLC that have come out and been patched to fix the release bugs, a part of the stock game, and it shouldn't be unreasonable to expect that all the major, game-breaking bugs are fixed. If i run around and see a person flying around whiterun or have a few undroppable items, i don't let it get to me, since minor bugs happen even after the game has been patched, but when i can't complete a quest [yes the console command is awesome, but not every platform has it] and/or the game won't play with this addon installed that is a major bug that should have been fixed before moving on. Yes i know that no one can possibly account for every bug for every user, but if the majority are having the dame god**n issue then obviously the problem is not fixed and everything is not ok.

[ginnyfizz]

congrats to you! you seem to be one of Bethesda's chosen few, whom everything works out for.

 

No, I'm not a "chosen few." I'm just someone who happens to enjoy the stock game.

 

If you've been to the tech support forum, then you'll know it is not just a few people with bugs but a lot of them, and i don't mean mod conflicts [although a few of them are] it is mostly issues that come down to Dawnguard bugs plus a crappy buggy patch which doesn't help.

 

And it really irritates me to no end when i spend time to help solve someone's issue and it comes back to a bug that none of us can fix, since we don't have all the tools that Bethesda does.

 

You know why I don't bother with the troubleshooting forum? Because the majority of the time I see someone list a bug it almost always comes back to mods. They start out claiming they're basically running a stock setup, but then when you start pressing them, they admit that oh... well they are running this mod and that mod, but they never had a problem with them before, yadda yadda.

 

It's also pretty well documented that you have to really know what you're doing to uninstall the software and start over because there's a lot of config files that get filed under windows UAC or Steam's backup files (something people are apparently offended by to begin with, because casual gamers are horrible people and Bethesda isn't allowed to be a real company and have to answer to copyrights or worry about the payroll it would require to develop two different versions of the game for their main audience and people who want to be able to adjust and customize everything :rolleyes: ) So maybe you aren't running mods now, but that doesn't mean you didn't at some point and something is still floating around.

 

I'm not even willing to have this debate with you. We'll just have to agree to disagree, because I don't trust that anyone is actually running a stock setup on a modding forum to claim that they have a "stock" bug. And like I said above, I was not making any claims about Dawnguard. I was talking about the stock game.

 

I also seem to have a great deal more patience than the average person. A little slow down now and then doesn't bother me. Stuff in my quest journal that shouldn't be doesn't bother me. Stuff that people claim "ruins immersion" (God I DESPISE that word) doesn't bother me. So what if I can't drop Gallus's journal, and I don't see a problem with the UI because I use a 360 controller like the game was developed for. I guess I'm just a lot more open minded than the average gamer.

 

Missing the point again. First of all, I know how to uninstall mods properly and not only remove the files but run a registry editor too and woo, I even know about regedit too. Secondly, when I had the bug with the Dawnguard Vamp Lord tutorial on my desktop rig I said to myself "Well this could well be a mod conflict". So I installed totally fresh and vanilla ON A DIFFERENT MACHINE, I have an Acer Aspire with a whomping great core i7, ATI 5850 mobility and 16GB RAM that I knew could run Skyrim. And guess what - I got the bug again. I therefore pointed all this out to Bethesda in my tech support request, and even they acknowledged it as a vanilla bug that they were working on. I can attach the ruddy email if you like. And when I complain about bugs, I mean the real gamebreakers like that one.

 

You might well not see a problem with the UI, but then you probably don't have a disability which affects your hands. When you have rheumatoid arthritis your hands can feel like someone hit them with a hammer, and that's on a good day. The reason I don't use my XBox 360 much is actually the controller, my hands are not up to it. I have to throw large amounts of money at the most touch sensitive mouse and mechanical keyboard I can find and play on PC. I remember in the days when Skyrim first came out and I could not cope with the UI, going on the netz and finding that the UI was getting a real caning by disabled gamers. So the vanilla UI is actually physically difficult for some people because of its consoleitis. I was a happy girl when I discovered SkyUI.

[Stemin]

Ok i agree that some people reporting issues do have some stuff floating around, which is why i tell them to completely remove the mods from their files, not just uncheck a box. Yes the vanilla, vanilla version of the game is more or less "bug-free" then it was, and yes i know that stock , means the game that came out of the box, however when Bethesda realizes a DLC, "patches" it and then continues to pump out more DLC [i don't have a problem with new content].

 

then i count the DLC that have come out and been patched to fix the release bugs, a part of the stock game, and it shouldn't be unreasonable to expect that all the major, game-breaking bugs are fixed. If i run around and see a person flying around whiterun or have a few undroppable items, i don't let it get to me, since minor bugs happen even after the game has been patched, but when i can't complete a quest [yes the console command is awesome, but not every platform has it] and/or the game won't play with this addon installed that is a major bug that should have been fixed before moving on. Yes i know that no one can possibly account for every bug for every user, but if the majority are having the dame god**n issue then obviously the problem is not fixed and everything is not ok.

 

I don't know what to tell you. It took something like 9 months for them to iron out the stock game to the point where the majority of the stuff was fixed and they're still patching it. Dawnguard is going to take them longer. Especially since there's still a possibility they're trying to tweak the code to make it work on PS3. If that IS the case, and they are tweaking the code still, then you can bet Dawnguard fixes are going to be few and far between until its sorted. It just makes sense from a business standpoint not to release patches for code that's going to change. Particularly since it costs a ton of money to release patches on the consoles. I think it's about 40 grand per patch on XBox Live alone.

[Stemin]

Missing the point again. First of all, I know how to uninstall mods properly and not only remove the files but run a registry editor too and woo, I even know about regedit too.

 

As usual, it's all about you. YOU have a friend who works at a software store so everyone elses information is irrelevant. YOUR bugs aren't fixed, so Bethesda is incompetent. Etc. etc.

 

Secondly, when I had the bug with the Dawnguard Vamp Lord tutorial on my desktop rig I said to myself "Well this could well be a mod conflict". So I installed totally fresh and vanilla ON A DIFFERENT MACHINE, I have an Acer Aspire with a whomping great core i7, ATI 5850 mobility and 16GB RAM that I knew could run Skyrim. And guess what - I got the bug again. I therefore pointed all this out to Bethesda in my tech support request, and even they acknowledged it as a vanilla bug that they were working on. I can attach the ruddy email if you like. And when I complain about bugs, I mean the real gamebreakers like that one.

 

Again. Not talking about the DLC.

 

You might well not see a problem with the UI, but then you probably don't have a disability which affects your hands. When you have rheumatoid arthritis your hands can feel like someone hit them with a hammer, and that's on a good day. The reason I don't use my XBox 360 much is actually the controller, my hands are not up to it. I have to throw large amounts of money at the most touch sensitive mouse and mechanical keyboard I can find and play on PC. I remember in the days when Skyrim first came out and I could not cope with the UI, going on the netz and finding that the UI was getting a real caning by disabled gamers. So the vanilla UI is actually physically difficult for some people because of its consoleitis. I was a happy girl when I discovered SkyUI.

 

First off, Bethesda should not have to cater to disabilities, and the expectation that they should is utterly and completely ridiculous. Should they start making special copies for people who are color blind? How about special copies for people with only one hand? I can't believe you ever had the nerve to go there.

 

Your arthritis is YOUR problem. You should be coming up with accomodations that suit you. Not blaming Bethesda. Personally I think a medical condition would trump me trying to play video games, but hey. They're not my priorities. I like playing basketball too, but I'm 50 lbs overweight and have bad feet. I think I'm gonna write a letter to Huffy and complain that they don't make their basketball hoops 5 feet off the ground so I can sit on my ass and shoot.

 

As a matter of fact, the idea that someone has arthritis and they're complaining about the 360 is another absurdity to me. You're honestly telling me that cramping your left hand up to use the WASD setup is better for you than a gamepad? Really?

 

I seriously can't believe you're making this argument.