Spoilers from beta 1.8

[Inquart]

I'll say this last bit, and then I'm really done. I doubt I could stomach reading another garbage "Oh they're just entitled" argument. I get enough of that horse**** from conservatives. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with demanding better from such a successful studio like Bethesda especially after they've released the buggiest Elder Scrolls game yet. When we let them get away with this kind of laziness, we're telling them it doesn't make any difference what condition their product is in upon release. Sure they share the Creation Kit with us, but cleaning up after their incompetence shouldn't be our job. It's theirs. Period.

 

Thank you. I probably couldn't have put it better myself (though I tried ;))

Edited November 1, 2012 by Inquart

[ginnyfizz]

So what your saying is, is that Bethesda should deny all the non-modders, which is to say the majority of the user base, an update that increases performance, and fixes some minor bugs, just because the small minority of users that consitute modders don't want to wait a couple days for a CK update?

 

I'm sorry but the needs of the average user far outway the needs of the mod makers, to believe anything else, is selfish.

 

 

When you said

Yes I do actually, being involved on the Kickstarter thing means I get regular updates of how much this and that costs.

I took that to mean you have some kickstarter project.

 

And don't get me started on the atrocious company that is Obsidian, that they continue to make games is revolting given their past history.

 

And given that they lack the funding of Bethesda, and have games that are even more buggy then Bethesda's on average, I have very low hopes for a stable game from them.

 

Well there wouldn't be anything like as many PC users if it wasn't for the modding community, so it would make sense to have a synchronised update. The update fixes some very insignificant things and none of the major things and I haven't seen any performance increase. I've even got the standing on the horse thing back again, although I grant that it is only for a second or so and I just pretend Morgana is a circus act...

 

The fact that the modders are snookered at the moment means that they are stopped from fixing the things that Bethesda won't, due to crippled CK. So again the entire community is affected.

 

But at least you now admit that Bethesda are very well funded. So they have no excuse for not getting their backsides in gear then, do they?

[Stemin]

But without us - without our money and without us still buying their buggy games for some reason - they wouldn't even exist as a game company.

 

We buy them because they have no competition. When you have an effective monopoly - as Bethesda does in the open-world, live-action RPG genre - there is no need to innovate, or even release working products.

 

And it never once occurred to you that they have no competition because they're actually the best at what they do? :rolleyes: It's not like other games haven't tried.

[ginnyfizz]

They were once the best, but not any more, I dunno but I just get the feeling that they have a hidden agenda other than open world single player RPG's.

[JanusForbeare]

So what your saying is that Bethesda should deny all the non-mod makers, which is to say the majority of the user base, an update that increases performance, and fixes some minor bugs, just because the small minority of users that consitute modders don't want to wait a couple days for a CK update?

 

I'm sorry but the needs of the average user far outway the needs of the mod makers, to believe anything else, is selfish.

 

No one needs 1.8. Players who are not mod authors wouldn't have been put out by having to wait a few more days for Bethesda to sync up the CK with the update. 99% of them wouldn't have even noticed.

 

However, the thousands of mod authors out there, many of whom have ongoing projects with scheduled updates (which users are anxiously waiting for) have been left out in the cold. We don't know when the CK update is coming; no release date has been announced. It could be tomorrow, or it could be two weeks from now. In the meantime, our projects - which are made for the good of the community, not for our own benefit - are on hold indefinitely.

 

Accusing people who spend their free time building and sharing new content of being selfish is just wrong. Not to mention hypocritical, since you do not share files and have only given two endorsements. All you do is consume and criticize - we produce. And you call us selfish?

 

I watched you and another user derail what was supposed to be a positive thread last night with your compulsive need to get in the last word, so I have little doubt that you'll have some sharp, angry retort for me. Suffice it to say, I won't be reading it. Not worth the time or aggravation.

[sajuukkhar9000]

Well there wouldn't be anything like as many PC users if it wasn't for the modding community, so it would make sense to have a synchronised update. The update fixes some very insignificant things and none of the major things and I haven't seen any performance increase. I've even got the standing on the horse thing back again, although I grant that it is only for a second or so and I just pretend Morgana is a circus act...

 

The fact that the modders are snookered at the moment means that they are stopped from fixing the things that Bethesda won't, due to crippled CK. So again the entire community is affected.

 

But at least you now admit that Bethesda are very well funded. So they have no excuse for not getting their backsides in gear then, do they?

PC players are the minority of both Oblivion and Skyrim's total players.

 

And no, a nonfunctional CK does not mean the "entire community" is effected, it means the minority of users that are mod makers, who are part of the minatory of total Skyrim users that constitutes the PC player crowed, are affected. A nonfunctional CK means the minority of the minority group is affected.

 

Except they do, its called time, time is money, and the time it would take to go through the literal trillions of possible interactions to find every bug would cost more money in man hours then the total sum of money they got from selling the game before you subtract anything.

Edited November 2, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[Georgiegril]

After seeing the post saying the PC sales are a minority, I got curious and attempted to look up sales for the three platforms. I was not able to find anything other than a mention of sales for the first few days, and those numbers did not include digital sales (as most of us who have the PC version probably used.) I saw another article that reported that Skyrim was responsible for a huge jump in digital sales and the PC platform, read something that after including digital sales, the three platforms are about even, with PC maybe having a slight lead, and read a thread that discussed how there really are no accurate available numbers, since Bethesda won't release them.

 

Is there an actual verified source for the PC sales vs Xbox vs. PS3? I would really like to see some real numbers from a reputable source.

[ginnyfizz]

I was once told by the manager of my local GAME store that the PC versions of TES games have a lot more repeat and ongoing sales after the initial release scrum, because of the modding community greatly enhancing the replayability and longevity of the games.

[stabbykitteh]

After seeing the post saying the PC sales are a minority, I got curious and attempted to look up sales for the three platforms. I was not able to find anything other than a mention of sales for the first few days, and those numbers did not include digital sales (as most of us who have the PC version probably used.) I saw another article that reported that Skyrim was responsible for a huge jump in digital sales and the PC platform, read something that after including digital sales, the three platforms are about even, with PC maybe having a slight lead, and read a thread that discussed how there really are no accurate available numbers, since Bethesda won't release them.

 

Is there an actual verified source for the PC sales vs Xbox vs. PS3? I would really like to see some real numbers from a reputable source.

 

There's this: http://www.vgchartz.com/game/49111/the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim/

 

I don't know if Steam downloads are counted in PC sales or just boxed copies.

[AxlRocks]

Well there wouldn't be anything like as many PC users if it wasn't for the modding community, so it would make sense to have a synchronised update. The update fixes some very insignificant things and none of the major things and I haven't seen any performance increase. I've even got the standing on the horse thing back again, although I grant that it is only for a second or so and I just pretend Morgana is a circus act...

 

The fact that the modders are snookered at the moment means that they are stopped from fixing the things that Bethesda won't, due to crippled CK. So again the entire community is affected.

 

But at least you now admit that Bethesda are very well funded. So they have no excuse for not getting their backsides in gear then, do they?

PC players are the minority of both Oblivion and Skyrim's total players.

 

And no, a nonfunctional CK does not mean the "entire community" is effected, it means the minority of users that are mod makers, who are part of the minatory of total Skyrim users that constitutes the PC player crowed, are affected. A nonfunctional CK means the minority of the minority group is affected.

 

Except they do, its called time, time is money, and the time it would take to go through the literal trillions of possible interactions to find every bug would cost more money in man hours then the total sum of money they got from selling the game before you subtract anything.

 

This. And just because I can't use the CK for what will probably be a few days max, on a game where normally I can mod nearly anything, in today's world of "make sure our game is un-moddable" and "don't release the game on PC," I really can't validate being upset. Yeah, it should've just been the same day, waited a while and both came out, but this isn't the end of the world. And yes, minority of the minority is correct. But even more, the world doesn't revolve around mod authors, mod players, PC players, Xbox players, or PS3 players (and out of anyone, PS3 players deserve better treatment far more than we do.). Bethesda has to deal with working on 3 platforms independently, one of which is horribly bugged (PS3), creating meshes, textures, quests, scripts, interior and exterior cells, NPC's for the next DLC, editing the engine to support the new aspects of the DLC one cannot simply mod in, editing the CK for us specifically, and it all has to be tested together to some extent to try and prevent even bigger bugs so we don't have another 1.2 where more harm is done that good. And unfortunately, everyone at Beth who works on the game is essentially a modder, except unlike here, every modder's material has to play nice with others, you're under a timeline, plus all the above, and it can't help but turn into work rather than "free time fun."

 

Edit: Oh, well isn't that interesting. Those numbers could be off for all we know, but if anywhere near correct, we're about 19% of the players. Steam might not be counted, I don't know, but personally, that sounds about right to me, because on average we're much lower than console sells in anything. And maybe Skyrim sells better in stores elsewhere, but here, PC games sell for crap. I was like 1 of 5 who pre-ordered, 1 of 2 who showed up at midnight launch, and the PC section has the same games, one copy of each max, in the same arrangement, everytime you go in. Popular games too. That is Gamestop for you, (and the employees there wouldn't typically know the first thing about what a mod is other than CoD hacks being called that, but that's another rant) but there aren't any other game stores here and many of my friends who live in other areas are in the same boat. And thanks for the link, flummox. (Edited again, I shouldn't do math at 5:17 AM =\ )

Edited November 2, 2012 by AxlRocks