Bretons are Celtic?

[Kraeten]

Lately I've been looking into Skyrim's races and their respective origins, and for the most part they're pretty straight forward. Bretons however I can't quite seem to pin down. By reading some of their names you might think them inspired by the French, but after doing some digging they appear instead to be Celtic? While this might explain their more primitive appearance in Skyrim as the Forsworn, it seems a bit contradictory when you take into account High Rock's more typical medieval themes. To cut this long winded question short, I would ask which influence defines the race more...the primitive hill tribes Celtic aspect or the themes we associate with medieval Europe?

 

I'm inclined to believe it is the latter, considering this wallpaper of King Emeric. Note the Celtic knot on his tabard though.

Edited November 3, 2012 by Kraeten

[AnkhAscendant]

I would say that there's not really a reason it can't be both, in different areas - it's only cultural differences. ("Only". :P ) I would say that the Bretons in High Rock, who turn politics into a national sport, are very much influenced by medieval Europe. The Reachmen, though racially the same, have a very different culture due to a very different history, and I'd say they're the tribal Celtic ones. I'd go further and say that there's no reason the High Rock Bretons couldn't have culturally evolved from a similar tribal lifestyle, whereas the Reachmen clung to the old ways and changed little, and what changes they did make went in a different direction.

[nakakita]

The 'Celtic Knot' you noticed is a Triskelion. It actually might not be a reference to the 'Celticness of Bretons' but instead be a way of showing the tri-pact of Redguards, Bretons, and Orcs. You can see the same symbol on the Redguard behind the king.

[modder3434]

I view the Bretons like I do in Ancinet Great Brtiian.

 

England has the feudal system, while in Scotland they have more primative culture based on clans (Tribes).

[Falkner1992]

I actually really doubt that, I think the main inspiration behind the Bretons were the Franks from medieval France. Their names, their appearance, their feudalistic society (see the Elder Scrolls Wikie article on High Rock) are all very similar to the Franks'.

[luzburg]

They are all of the same Germanic stock so they could be based on any early pre-roman european tribe.

[Kraeten]

I actually really doubt that, I think the main inspiration behind the Bretons were the Franks from medieval France. Their names, their appearance, their feudalistic society (see the Elder Scrolls Wikie article on High Rock) are all very similar to the Franks'.

 

Well here's the argument I read that made me think it was more complicated.

 

"The Breton are obviously based on the Celtic peoples and the reference isn't a subtle one either (starting with the name). The book Provinces of Tamriel specifically mentions Brittany as Breton territory. For your information, Britanny (Bretagne in French and Breizh in Breton) is the most northwestern part of present day France inhabited by Bretons (who are today French citizens but are not of the Frankish lineage) some of whom still speak Breton (a Celtic language) and are the direct descendats of the Celts who have been living in that area since before the Antiquity. When they conquered the British Isles (then inhabited by Pictish tribes among others) they named it Greater Brittany, so the names Brit, Briton and Britain have nothing to do with the Anglo-Saxons who arrived much later to the place (and in turn named it Anglia which survives today as England).

 

The same book mentions that the Bretons live in separated clans, again something typical of the Celtic peoples (including the Irish and the Scots) and nothing like the Anglo-Saxons or Franks who have had a longstanding tradition of being united (which accounts for a large part of their success and also their historical hostility)."

Edited November 3, 2012 by Kraeten

[luzburg]

I actually really doubt that, I think the main inspiration behind the Bretons were the Franks from medieval France. Their names, their appearance, their feudalistic society (see the Elder Scrolls Wikie article on High Rock) are all very similar to the Franks'.

 

Well here's the argument I read that made me think it was more complicated.

 

"The Breton are obviously based on the Celtic peoples and the reference isn't a subtle one either (starting with the name). The book Provinces of Tamriel specifically mentions Brittany as Breton territory. For your information, Britanny (Bretagne in French and Breizh in Breton) is the most northwestern part of present day France inhabited by Bretons (who are today French citizens but are not of the Frankish lineage) some of whom still speak Breton (a Celtic language) and are the direct descendats of the Celts who have been living in that area since before the Antiquity. When they conquered the British Isles (then inhabited by Pictish tribes among others) they named it Greater Brittany, so the names Brit, Briton and Britain have nothing to do with the Anglo-Saxons who arrived much later to the place (and in turn named it Anglia which survives today as England).

 

The same book mentions that the Bretons live in separated clans, again something typical of the Celtic peoples (including the Irish and the Scots) and nothing like the Anglo-Saxons or Franks who have had a longstanding tradition of being united (which accounts for a large part of their success and also their historical hostility)."

 

 

The Scots were Irish, they invaded and drove the picts out.

[Falkner1992]

It's possible the Bretons from the ES series were at one point a tribal society much like the Celts, and indeed you do see Celtic-like Bretons in Skyrim in the form of the Forsworn. But the Breton homeland of High Rock is definitely much more similar in every way to medieval France under the feudalism than any Celtic society I'm aware of. Remember that sometimes the origin of the name isn't as important, and most people who think Briton think feudal post-Saxon, Norman-controlled England just as much as they do pre-Saxon England.

 

PS.

Also I think you're wrong about the Bretons living in tribes, the article on High Rock in the ES Wiki claims that their society is divided into "a noble elite, a middle class of merchants, and a destitute peasantry". That's pretty much the definiton of a feudal order.

Edited November 3, 2012 by Falkner1992

[Kraeten]

The 'Celtic Knot' you noticed is a Triskelion. It actually might not be a reference to the 'Celticness of Bretons' but instead be a way of showing the tri-pact of Redguards, Bretons, and Orcs. You can see the same symbol on the Redguard behind the king.

 

Good suggestion, and nice work spotting that. However Emeric's call to arms also has some Celtic influence as well http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/game-guide/alliances/daggerfall-covenant.

 

The Scots were Irish, they invaded and drove the picts out.

 

Well short of that inconsistency, the fellow did seem to be more or less accurate.