Adam, Eve and the Forbidden Fruit

[Zmid]

As I have emphasised often in these religious threads - atheism is a belief as much as christianity or animism - it has no proofs. Ultimately arguments on either side for 'proof' are pointless and to be frank get a tad boring.

I totally agree with this. This is why I have no problem in saying that I have absolutely no idea whatsoever if there is some kind of Supreme Being and, if there is, what form he/she/it takes. I would be highly surprised that, if a God of some form does exist, he/she/it exists exactly as any religion, including Christianity, portrays them.

[Darnoc]

@Theta: Could it be that I took the Uncertainty Principle for Chaos Theory? Chaos theory does state that the only constant in a complex system is that it is not linear and therefore not calculatable. This is what I don't agree with, I think that even such a complex system has its own laws and that it can be controlled and calculated, the problem is that we just don't know how at the moment. What exactly are you talking about then?

[Akrid]

I belive in order to break somone of there delusion, you must know how they came to believe it in the first place, you cannot explain to a group of religious people why thier wrong, it must be done one on one.

 

So all those who belive in some form of god, state your religion and tell about how you came to believe it. I'll start, it's going to be long....

 

I first became a christan when I was five or so, ofcourse I didn't get real serious about it untill I got older, once in my teens I was so brain washed I would rather die than denounce my religion. I always thought deeply about god and his creations, the universe and fate. I have always had excellent comprehension skills. In other words I think about the workings of things as a whole, but raw facts like math and mechanics or remembering dates of events are not my strong points. I began to think about the world and all the people and how many people are supposed to go to hell, and how my granfather who is probaly the nicest person I know is a aithest and he is supposed to burn in hell, while my father a arrogent man who has more than his fair share of sins is bound for heaven, just because he believes. So to belive and worship this god despite your shortcommings is all that matters. So if you happen to not buy the bible's story, or you just where not raised to belive it, you deserve to suffer in hell for eternity. What kind of god was I worshipping? I would choose the fate of man more fare than that and I was a 17 year old mortal. When I asked for advise about this from my father and church members some christans all there lives they all gave me metiphorical answers, like "god works in mysterious ways", and "we don't understand his plan". So what do we really understand? Why should I belive that the religion I was born into was the one true religion? Why not buddism? I could have been jewish and then I would go to hell? While I was still under the delusion the bible presented I began to think about satan and what his motovation would be, if he is already defeated, why play god's stupid game anymore? I eventually awakened to the morbid reality that there is no god, no evidence to believe in one, and a world full of people that have creating religions since man was smart enuff to think.

[Peregrine]

To satisfy Peregrine: I define Chaos as the absolute disorder of everything and what I call order is the absolute basic order of things. Those are two extremes and both can't exist at the same time, because they are absolute opposites. Either there is perfect chaos (in which case everything ceases to exist, because everything would fall apart) or there is perfect order (in which case everything exists). You used the example of a crystal at zero degree. At zero degree there is no movement at all. Order doesn't include no movement. There is also an order in movement. But the laws of movement are far more complex than the laws of something standing still (logically). That is why the molecules in a gas may look like they are in a state of chaos, which isn't true. They also follow laws and are in perfect order, we just don't understand those laws and therefore we think that chaos exists.

 

*starts beating head against wall*

 

Did you even try to read what I wrote? I am not defining order and chaos. The definitions I posted are the accepted, proven ones used in those laws you want to use. A perfect crystal is not my example of pure order, it is the definition! A universe of perfect order would be a perfect crystal at absolute zero. End of discussion.

 

You can't just redefine things to be whatever you want them to mean. You can't just attach whatever abstract philosophical concepts you want to proven and defined laws.

 

Omniscience doesn't include having knowlegde of everything. Omniscience is when you have understanding of the mechanism, rules and laws of the universe and therefore you understand all processes which leads to that you know everything, because you can calculate everything that is going to happen based on your knowlegde.

 

Main Entry: om·ni·scient

Pronunciation: -sh&nt

Function: adjective

Etymology: New Latin omniscient-, omnisciens, back-formation from Medieval Latin omniscientia

1 : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight

2 : possessed of universal or complete knowledge- om·ni·scient·ly adverb

 

Concession accepted.

[Darnoc]

Did you even try to read what I wrote? I am not defining order and chaos. The definitions I posted are the accepted, proven ones used in those laws you want to use. A perfect crystal is not my example of pure order, it is the definition! A universe of perfect order would be a perfect crystal at absolute zero. End of discussion.

 

Yes, this is the definition. Now, did you ever think about, why this is the definition and on what principle this definition was made? A cristal at zero degree is in perfect order to all the laws we know at the moment. Because in a cristal at zero degrees there is no change at all (unless you correct the temperature upwards), it is working according to all rules we know. With this I mean all those linear rules we know at the moment, those basic rules. But there are far more complex rules for other things which seem like chaos at the moment, because we just do not possess the knowlegde at the moment. I am talking about the rules of change, the dynamic laws. Something that is happening all the time in nature. A nightmare for a linear thinking person. But there is still law and order behind this change, we are just not able to see it at the moment. To find those laws we'll have to change our linear way of thinking into a dynamic way of thinking. Then the time will come when we will have to redefine order and chaos. The first step was made for example with the quantum mechanics. You probably know about the differences between those and relativity theory. That is because relativity is still based on the old linear thinking while quantum mechanic is based on dynamics or at least in some parts.

[m_gobes]

if you look in chapter 2 you will see that God says that they will surely die if they eat of the fruit. So he clearly gives the consequences of sin. simply put God told them so.

[Peregrine]

if you look in chapter 2 you will see that God says that they will surely die if they eat of the fruit. So he clearly gives the consequences of sin. simply put God told them so.

*resumes beating head against wall*

 

Of course god told them not to do it. But the question is, can someone with a child's knowledge of good/evil be truly guilty of sin? Without knowledge of good and evil, Adam and Eve couldn't know that it is wrong to disobey legitimate authority (ignoring the question of whether god was right to make that law). So why should they (and everyone else) be punished for this "sin" out of ignorance?

[Breton Thief Oriana]

Of course god told them not to do it. But the question is, can someone with a child's knowledge of good/evil be truly guilty of sin? Without knowledge of good and evil, Adam and Eve couldn't know that it is wrong to disobey legitimate authority (ignoring the question of whether god was right to make that law). So why should they (and everyone else) be punished for this "sin" out of ignorance?

 

Thats cause it wasnt a sin... But it was disobeying. they knew he was god, almighty of everything, and instead listened to the snake and ate the forbidden fruit. Therefore, they ARE children, not only innocent but also disobediant. Wernt you disciplined as a child for things your mother told you not to do that you did anyway?

[Maquissar]

Yes, but my mother didn't kick me out of the house.

 

3:9: And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

3:10: And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

3:11: And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

3:12: And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

3:13: And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

3:14: And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

3:15: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

3:16: Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

3:17: And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

3:18: Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

3:19: In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

 

This is what I meant by overreacting.

[cactoblasta]

I don't think there's any call to believe that an omnisicient, omnipotent being would be nice. If you look at the Old Testament there's a lot of smiting going on, and it's not always the guilty that get turned in pillars of salt.

 

I have no trouble believing that there could be a god - regardless of pure order/chaos and any evidence or lack thereof in that direction. The petulance, cruelty and stubborn pride exhibited in the Bible seem quite reasonable attitudes for a god.

 

As some DWM said, if there was no god we'd have to create one, and he/she/it is indeed crafted in our image.

 

Believing in a created god requires a sort of twisted thinking, but there is clear evidence of his/her/its existence. The being can make its worshippers choose to die for it, can make otherwise ordinary people do things of unbelievable good or unspeakable evil.

 

Divine power doesn't have to involve smiting with lightning bolts, resurrections, golden showers, giant potbellies and amorous ducks. It can extend to psychological domination and a tool of political control, in which case I believe it loses none of its divinity, and not merely because these things are not easily proven with scientific theory.

 

A god which can be made such that it can order the Inquisition could easily order a couple of clay golems out of its metaphysical garden.