The Towers-Thalmor DLC theories

[nakakita]

Interesting. I'd never heard anything relating to the Mythic Dawn manipulating the empire before. Well, here is the quote from Lord of Souls talking about White-Gold tower. I'm omitting some of it (lines about what the characters are doing specifically), but not any of the actual information.

 

It's the tower, it's the key. I didn't get it until Colin remembered one of the symbols meant 'echo'. The White-Gold tower is an echo of the ur-tower, the first object of our reality the gods created. It's one of the axes of creation.

 

Umbriel thinks it can emancipate him from Clavicus Vile, making him free of the prince forever. Possibly it would if I gave him the chance.

 

That's it. The previous echo reference is this.

 

It's not a drawing, or at least not a blueprint for a device. It's more like a map. This for instance - I've seen this before where it represented a soul gem - or at least the idea of something that can trap a soul. And here this represents something that flows only in one direction like a river.

 

Then it is a plan of sorts?

 

Right. It could be a device, or a spell, or a series of spells involving - well, at least two arcane objects. this one and that one.

 

If that's the case, then this one might represent Umbriel. You see? The word 'Umbriel' is in the passage next to it.

 

Possibly, but if so, what is this one?

 

You know, if you turn it this way, it looks familiar to me -- I've seen it before, or something really close. Nit in Hierem's chambers, but when I was studying to enter the Penitus Oculatus.

 

That's a very different context.

 

I know. It was used by necromancers, back before the Mages' Guild schismed. It was used to designate ghosts, but the meaning was more complicated. I think it could mean 'shadow' or even 'echo.'

 

I don't see how it can mean that here, not knowing any more than we do.

[sajuukkhar9000]

Interesting. I'd never heard anything relating to the Mythic Dawn manipulating the empire before. Well, here is the quote from Lord of Souls talking about White-Gold tower. I'm omitting some of it (lines about what the characters are doing specifically), but not any of the actual information.

All those quotes say is that

1. White-Gold is a echo of the Ur-Tower, which it is

2. Umbriel thinks White-gold can be used to free him.

 

Nothing, in any of the quotes you provided, give any reference, or credence, to the assertion that White-gold tower was still working.

 

Could white-gold have done what he said it did? possibly, if it was working.

Edited November 9, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[nakakita]

But the books don't make sense at all unless the tower is working? Or, if the tower would have been able to sever the connection between Umbriel and Clavicus without supposedly working, then how could it even be fully deactivated if it has that much power?

 

But prophecies are generally .. vague, and easily interpreted in too many ways anyway. What you see as a singular event does not really look like it needs to be one to me, just that they both happened, and triggered something else.

 

Speaking of strange interpretations of prophecy... When I was looking at one of the Nerevarine prophecies.. it actually looks like it might be saying that the Nerevarine is dragonborn, rather than that someone Dragonborn sends out the Nerevarine. Could this be in any way confirmed? Not really without an amulet of kings to wear or a dragon to kill. And you're likely to attack me for even mentioning that one. But it could, potentially be the case.

[Lachdonin]

We shall have to agree to differ on interpretations of the prophesy, and prophesy in general. The prose of the prophesy states that, in order for a verse to be complete and further signs to be valid, events must coincide, not that their cause is related.

 

- Theres really only one criteria associated with thise one, that there be missrule by a leader, and that it affect 8 corners of the world (though there are 9 provinces, so the association with the province isn't valid in this case)

 

- The 'Brass Tower' has to walk, and time has to be reshaped. We know the Numidium has walked at least once before (under Tiber Septim's command) and that Dragon Breaks, though rare, are not exclusively caused by the Numidium's destruction.

 

- The Tribunal has to lose its power, and red mountain has to tremble. Red mountain certianlly has trembled before, but again, the prophesy its self doesn't give any indication that the two events are related, simply that both criteria must be valid at the same time.

 

- The Dragonborn Ruler must lose his throne, and the White Tower has to become innert. As a technicality, the Dragonborn Ruler didn't lose its throne, but the throne lost its Dragonborn Ruler, as the Septims died out rather than being overthrone. Theres also indications that Uriel was not a true-blood Septim, and that the Dragonblood had died generations earlier. If this is the case, and the two events are related, the White Tower should have fallen well before the other stages of the prophesy.

 

All the Prophesy states is that there cannot be a Dragonborn on the throne, and that the White-Gold Tower has to be deactivated. We have, at least, 200 years of the former state in which the latter could have been achieved. All that matters is that it be fulfiled before the final verse's criteria. Since the core criteria in the final verse is that Skyrim be kingless and awash with blood, it only comes into play about a year before Skyrim begins, meaning that the previous verse could be completed any time before that.

 

You are using meta-knowlege of earlier criteria in the prophesy to draw a causal relation between all criteria, when there is no evidence, within the souce its self (the prophesy) to suggest such a relationship. You then attack the credibility of a source which disputes your possition and deny its validity. For someone who has in the past defended forum posted information from Kirkbride (and rightly so) i find it dissapointing that you would so quickly dissmiss an officially sanctioned source in favor of a preconcieved sequence of events.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Lachdonin

[sajuukkhar9000]

But the books don't make sense at all unless the tower is working? Or, if the tower would have been able to sever the connection between Umbriel and Clavicus without supposedly working, then how could it even be fully deactivated if it has that much power?

 

But prophecies are generally .. vague, and easily interpreted in too many ways anyway. What you see as a singular event does not really look like it needs to be one to me, just that they both happened, and triggered something else.

 

Speaking of strange interpretations of prophecy... When I was looking at one of the Nerevarine prophecies.. it actually looks like it might be saying that the Nerevarine is dragonborn, rather than that someone Dragonborn sends out the Nerevarine. Could this be in any way confirmed? Not really without an amulet of kings to wear or a dragon to kill. And you're likely to attack me for even mentioning that one. But it could, potentially be the case.

Todd Howard confirmed that the Nerevarine being "dragon born" means he was born in The empire, it isn't the same Dragon born as THE Dragonborn.

 

Also the books make sense if Umbriel doesn't know the tower isn't working, which most people wouldn't.

[nakakita]

*shrug* I didn't bother to google that one. It just looks like either could be true to someone who only was looking at in-game sources. I only started playing Morrowind when it was on sale before Hearthfire was released anyway.

 

@Lachdonin, thank you for those clarifications.

[Lachdonin]

But i shall digress, and argue the point no further, since it's neither here nor there. The simple fact is, White Gold has failed by the time of Skyrim.

 

This leaves a single tower, The Adamantium, still active. Which is only sort of a problem, as it is fundimental source of reality (if defined as solid substance and linear time). The others were created after the fact, and not by the Gods, but rather the Aldmer and their decendants (the various varieties of Mer).

 

Because all (but one, to be dealt with later) the remaining towers were, in effect, constructed by mortals, their restoration should not be outside the realm of possibility. Proper knowlege, powerful magics and sufficient will is all that is nessessary. Knowlege, we know, still exists, amongst the Psyjics, in the archives of Alinor and burried in the deep places of the world. Powerful magics, again, are still to be found in many places across Tamriel. All we need is the will, which of course is the opportune role for a future PC.

 

The biggest issue is the removal of the Heart from Red Mountian. Red Tower was the only over divinely constructed Tower, and because of its divine nature cannot be recreated without divine help. Unlike the Adamantium Tower and the Zero Stone, however, the stone of the Red Tower was the literal heart of the worlds true creator, Lorkhan, so it stands to reason that nothing short of the divine essance of a god will replace it.

 

No gods are really forthcomming with their divine hearts, so repairing that particular stress on the fabric of reality seems somewhat problematic.

 

But then theres also the issue of Cameron's assertion that truely divine beings cannot die, and that Lorkhan still lives (of course he does, he is Akatosh, but again i digress) . With his Heart no longer bound to the Red Tower, and considering the 2 year absense of what some call his 'body' (again, far more complext, but for the purposes of expediency...) and the rising turmoil and change throughout Tamriel (Lorkhan's essance is that of change) could we be building towards the return of the worlds true creator? And if so, would Lorkhan, who literally gave everything so that others could experience uncertianty and strive to understand the true nature of the Wheel, let Mundus disolve into the nothingness it came from?

 

I would be inclined to think not, which again, IMO, sets up a excelent platform for a future TES game, where the PC is one of the Shezzarines, fighting to restore stability to Mundus's very foundations.

[Carmelpoptart]

Well first off, never used the Elder Scrolls wiki, that article is TERRIBLE as explanation the towers, and if full of non confirmed sources.

 

Secondly

-Orchalic Tower was destroyed when the Redguards killed the Left-Handed Elves and blew up Yokuda

-Brass Tower was destroyed by Zurin Arctus the Underking at the end of Daggerfall.

-Crystal Tower was destroyed by the Daedra during Oblivion.

-Red Tower went offline when the Nerevarine freed the heart of lorkhan

-White-gold tower went offline when Martin destroyed the Amulet of Kings

-Green-Sap went offline before Oblivion

-Snow tower is already offline by the time Skyrim starts.

 

All the towers are already destroyed/offline except the Ur-tower in High Rock, and we have already been to High rock, so I doubt we will see it again.

We have also been to all of tamriel in arena. daggerfall had randomly generated terrain (as did arena) so it doesn't count.

[BrettM]

I'm a bit confused. I thought the Snow Tower was the Monahven. How was that constructed by mortals, and when and how did it become deactivated?

[Lachdonin]

I'm a bit confused. I thought the Snow Tower was the Monahven. How was that constructed by mortals, and when and how did it become deactivated?

 

We don't know when it was deactivated by mortals, only that the deactivation was a pre-requisite for Alduins return, so it has to be offline.

 

As for being built by mortals... You have to understand that the Towers were 'constructed' in a time when reality was still forming. The ability to shape the land around them would have still been within the abilities of the earliest Aldmer. Even then, the key point of a "tower" is the stone which powers it, which means that, were the Throat of the World a truely 'natural' montain, it could still be empowered to channel resitual creatia through the use of a stone. A stone we know absolutely nothing about, unfortunately.