New Vegas Faction and Politics Debate

[charwo]

Tricky, did you even consider the words you just said?

 

A self-sufficient community is best? if that were the case, the capital wasteland would be in much better shape than the Mojave. It's not, not by a damn sight. Centralization is MORE important in a postwar world than the prewar world. In the prewar world, humanity was an apex predator without any land competition other than wolves, which we had turned into dogs. Postwar, you have medium-size menaces such as geckos, and then the lovely fire ants, radscorpions of any size, cazadores, nightstalkers and of course everyone's favorite death devil in mook's clothing, the deathclaw. Only organization, the human capacity to improvise and manufacture weapons, as well as humanity's penchant for large-scale ambush predation, can equal the balance. Let's just look at the difference between how super mutants are looked at in new Vegas and in Fallout 3. A New Vegas, the dumb dumbs are violent and threat and rather stupid, just like the 87 Supers. But they're seen as a nuisance to be exterminated, not the nightmare from the Appalachian foothills they are in fallout three. That is because despite fairly substantial numbers, both the NCR and Caesar's Legion have the training and weaponry to fight them on equal terms and wipe them out. This is a good thing.

 

In the long term, Caesar's rejection of technology dooms all who live under him, because the only way to deal with the human created problems, AKA the mutagenic megafauna, is to engineer ways to destroy them by a say undermining the genetic structure stomping out all the death claw legs, Dr. Les goes fundamentally sound notion of re-implementing their old DNA baselines in the giant insects to take them down to size, such as so forth. And it's a critical thing to understand that humanity becomes more prosperous and more safe the larger its population gets and the more organization if not centralization humanity possesses. As they put it in one of the Ted talks ideas like to have sex, and the more ideas there are to be traded and the more ideas that are traded, the faster pair mutations and solutions come about. And then there's the office of science and information. Dr. Hilbert is a douche but he's right: the gene splicing information from Vault 22 is necessary to reintroduce less hardy plants to a world that has been changed, especially in terms of low level background radiation, not to mention mutagens and mutated on the old world plants were not specifically adapted to dealing with. What this means is that the rebuilding of the world in a timely fashion depends on the modern industrialized society putting its efforts towards putting the mess right.

 

The Earth is our charge, it's not a huge point in Fallout, but it is a point. This notion of we can talk up the earth long after we've gone is extraordinarily misplaced in terms of the dead earth concept. But it is very pertinent in the week created biological warfare mutants that won't go away and we created new diseases and we made the world to vulnerable for the base crops that we need so very badly to live. Not to mention the toxic waste dumps in such. Caesar's Legion is not capable of doing this task, and house really isn't interested. The independent new Vegas ending makes it plausible, if you play a high-minded scientist. But even then not really. Ideas are less important than raw power, which is something even J Sawyer, upon whom Arcade Gannon is explicitly based, understands all too well. And it doesn't negate the other point that power without idealism is perhaps the most destructive thing of all.

 

I mean, if this were a fantasy world, I could sort of understand every argument you made, that here and the why everyone hates new Vegas thread, but this is a not fantasy world. It's not quite our world, but it's close enough to where I have what I consider to be a proper bias. Fallout America isn't my America, but it is America. And America must endure. but even then, House represents everything that is wrong with the old world, or rather the world of the resource wars. The yes-man ending is everything that is wrong with the postwar world. And Caesar is emblematic of everything that was wrong with the Roman Empire, and fascism as a political ideology ( not to be confused with fascism as a political philosophy which I actually find quite useful). All of these endings are corrupted by ego: it's House's vision to the exclusion of all others, and even in the best case of the yes-man ending, everything hinges upon the vision of the one courier, and in Caesar's case, his vision was corrupted by his lust for power. There is no plurality, there is no empowerment of the individual. Only NCR gives people the power economically and politically to make their own destiny. In houses case, he provides the economic freedom, but only to a point. Vault 21 is a testament to that. Caesar provides the political stability but none of the freedom. And totalitarianism inevitably fails where ever it is pursued. Everyone but Caesar understands that. The yes-man ending makes people free without any regard to making them safe. And we know this because Prim is left to its own devices good Springs is left to its own devices and did you let the brotherhood of steel live, they terrorize the highways, because anarchy leads straight to the despotism of the strongman. Only in CR, with its American ideals, represents a viable path.

 

In the end, you're completely wrong about the fallout universe. It is the same as ours, and it's the it attempt of the people in fallout to change these basic rules of how the universe governs and what is actually possible that causes them to be destroyed by their own internal contradictions. In the ancient world this was called hubris, it was the pride that made man challenge the gods. And also there was a great grief saying those whom the gods would destroy they first make mad, and that madness was always at least 70% hubris. That's the moral lesson of Fallout: when the resource wars came, the people of the United States wanted to continue to live in a safe comfortable existence in a moment of supreme crisis. And they were destroyed for their folly and their stupid arrogance of commanding what the universe would not give them, and what the universe would have given them if they had merely waited and figured out the rules. Witness the nuclear craze: if the United States hadn't been so gung ho on controlling the last bits of oil around the world, they wouldn't have prodded China into invading Alaska, or at least China would be seen entirely as the aggressor. And by 2070, the resource wars would have been over because the men who play by the rules and figured out how to work with nature rather than demanding that changed to suit their tastes had made nuclear power cheap reliable and ubiquitous. They were so close to greatness, but there who burst it demands for convert destroyed them as a people.

[TrickyVein]

if that were the case, the capital wasteland would be in much better shape than the Mojave.

 

Meh. You're cherry-picking your facts. There are so many inconsistencies with Bethesda's vision you can hardly use that hypothetical to prove your point. And even if you insist on bringing up the capital wasteland as counterexample, I can just as easily mention that Rivet City, Megaton and Oasis seem to be doing just fine for themselves, which are all independent communities.

 

It's my fault for blurring the line between 'nation-building' and 'centralization.' Of course, centralization is a good thing, and you couldn't have local community building without everyone's implicit agreement to go along with some some recognized social hierarchy, authority, and government. The NCR, which is a state, goes beyond this.

 

Centralization is MORE important in a postwar world than the prewar world. In the prewar world, humanity was an apex predator without any land competition other than wolves, which we had turned into dogs.

 

Putting aside wolves for the moment, you seem to be forgetting that the resource wars (emphasis mine) were fought over exactly that: not enough land for humans to expand into. Call it land; call it resources; call it the green grass; this is what led to the nuclear holocaust to begin with. And we see it getting played out again in New Vegas: Caeser's legion, expanding West. The NCR, expanding East. What happens? You still really think there wasn't any 'land competition' in the prewar world?

 

Witness the nuclear craze: if the United States hadn't been so gung ho on controlling the last bits of oil around the world, they wouldn't have prodded China into invading Alaska, or at least China would be seen entirely as the aggressor. And by 2070, the resource wars would have been over because the men who play by the rules and figured out how to work with nature rather than demanding that changed to suit their tastes had made nuclear power cheap reliable and ubiquitous. They were so close to greatness, but there who burst it demands for convert destroyed them as a people.

 

Oh. So you do agree with me. If only the NCR weren't so 'gung ho' about controlling the energy from the Dam. If only they weren't so interested in taking over every major settlement on the West Coast. Do you see communities like Goodsprings and Primm fighting each other? Are they expansionist? Is there a need for them to acquire increasing amounts of fuel and energy for themselves? No. This is the scourge of nations. If you can't see how the NCR is doomed to repeat the fate of every other nation in human history since the agricultural revolution, then you are truly blind. There is no such thing as unlimited growth. Progress for its own sake is a bias in how we think about civilization that's been around since at least the industrial revolution. Maybe the scientific revoltuion. You illustrate this perfectly:

 

And it's a critical thing to understand that humanity becomes more prosperous and more safe the larger its population gets and the more organization if not centralization humanity possesses.

 

And I would agree with you, maybe in the short term. And maybe if I ignored perhaps the best, most recent example of a highly organized, prosperous and large nation that we have in the Fallout universe: the United States, right before the bombs fell. In the post-war world, there are fewer of every type of resource there was, which only accelerates the rate at which the inevitable happens. And what does this mean for individuals? (Talking about 'humanity' is a cop-out. There's no such thing. There are people who live their lives and participate in these institutions.)

 

You say that the NCR offers the best prospect for empowering individuals. So I guess the sons of wealthy Brahmin ranchers are just as empowered as the convicts who found themselves breaking out of an NCR prison. No, it's not as bad as the Legion, but I don't recall seeing a jail for people in Goodsprings or Freeside. There is no reason to impose a division between people inside of communities based on the NCR's views of birthright, entitlement, racism, or economic policy. This is what you will become saddled with when you choose to become a citizen.

 

...this is a not fantasy world [sic]. It's not quite our world, but it's close enough to where I have what I consider to be a proper bias. Fallout America isn't my America, but it is America. And America must endure...It is the same as ours.

 

Fallout is fantasy. It doesn't matter how well you try and explain that fantasy, which may be good story-telling (which is another issue). In the end it's still based on fairy-dust. It is not our world. I'm kind of surprised that you would say something like this after everything else you're written, and for someone who claims to be an anthropologist, you'd do well to analyze the biases which run through your writing. Why must America endure? Why do we 'have' to build nations, and why do you think this offers the best for the future? Might people choose to live in a different kind of society? Haven't we before, for 100's of 1,000's of years before domestication? Simply saying 'you're wrong' to the other guy doesn't help your argument.

[charwo]

Well, in the first place, Tricky, debate is not a tea party. You can't have a debate where an attack upon the idea is seen as an attack on the person. I find your ideas wrong, not you. I simply don't know enough about you, but you seem willing to sit down and analyze others, which is a good thing. Now, onto the argument:

 

Fallout is not fantasy except in the broad and categorically useless proclamation that all fiction is fantasy. No world that exists in fiction is our world. Were that the case, Agatha Christie would have many, many wrongful death lawsuits filed on her by next of kin, which would have been paid off by Scotland Yard, who would have used her as a psychic during her long, long life. The meaningful distinction between a fantasy world and our own is a demarcation of the constructed world: does the mundane world play by our rules? And with more or less our history? Could this world be a parallel world to ours without our knowledge. By that definition, all literary fiction would be non fantasy, as would most urban fantasy and sci fi. Lazarus Long, Edward Cullen Blade, and Hercule Perot all inhabit worlds that could be our own, because our knowledge of our world is incomplete. A story like Song of Ice and Fire, while still valuable, is a fantasy world because it has no connection to ours, and it not plausibly ours, epileptic tree speculation aside.

 

Now, we don't agree on the pre war because the circumstances, and this is consistent, even if opposed to the themes of Fallout: the Resource Wars were a systemic problem of the prewar era. But the Resource Wars lost their economic imperative halfway through World War III. The other issue is that we need to separate the nuclear exchange from the World War. The war itself was a systemic problem, and in Fallout, war is a problem endemic to human society. However, and this is important, the nuclear Armageddon, the nukes being used, was Cheng and Cheng alone. As bad as the Enclave was then, it wouldn't have launched, nor Desmond Lockheart, etc, ect. Everyone understood that a Mexican standoff leaves everyone with a case of dead or a case of lead poisoning. Cheng was a total monster, and it was his monstrousness alone that made the post apocalyptic world possible. This does fit in with Fallout's celebration of the power of the individual. In the Resource Wars, the world lead to World War III, but the semi conventional one we saw in Anchorage. But World War III to nuclear Armageddon is not exactly a logical development. World War II and several major local actions since were done without the use of chemical weapons for fear of nuclear retaliation. You have nukes as insurance of not getting nukes used on you, not to use them.

 

Then, anything thriving in the Wasteland? Between the Red Lung, the poisoned river and such, Rivet City was on borrowed time. The Capital Wasteland needs advanced technology not to purify the water, but end the scourge of radiation and poison completely, and the East Coast Brotherhood was rapidly becoming the Hegemon in the region. It's not simply a matter of being content. Human nature means you have but one of two types of powers in the long term: the Empire, like the Legion or the nation state. You cannot will away the political reality that humans work actively to consolidate and expand power. You're arguments fail for the same reason Communism's discount of price motivation fails: you aren't acknowledging how human beings actually work. All Yes man will do is set back the consolidation, it will not stop it. Unless House is going to buy the NCR Congress, and that could happen, House's victory is temporary for humanity in the rebuilding phase.

 

And in the NCR's case, there's a couple of things to keep in mind: NCR is an American Restorationist movement, any denials (and there are no denials) not withstanding. The NCR might, could be imperialist in Baja California, it's not said, but in Nevada, they aren't being imperialistic. Nevada belongs to the United States, end of story. Nevada is theirs, and they bring enough good things, like rule of law to justify it. Secondly, Hurricane Heck has more power than the farmhands he employs, no one will deny that, but the power inequality is less than a Decanus over a Legionary or House over anyone in Vegas. Hierarchy is endemic to human organization and humans need to to operate anything bigger than 200 people. Most people hate hierarchy, and everyone loathes bureaucracy, but they are needed. Perfect equality is an ideal that can never be reached. However, meritocracy is much more possible, as is social mobility in both directions than in House or Yes Man or the Legion. Simply put, this is because the lack of autocracy in the NCR means that barriers of favor (think the mark of Caesar) are much easier to circumvent. The problem here, and this is a big problem, is that you think any flaw is delegitimizing. NCR has minor problems: they are alll the problems of a young, vibrant, expansionist republic. Those problems pale in comparison to to any of the other factions, including an independent Courier.

 

But as I said, the per war world needs to be restored, but the prewar world of the pre Resource Wars, which is more than possible due to technology and technology's ability to circumvent scarcity, and actually achieve bounty. Remember this is a world with nearly limitless power generation capacity, capacity that is easily transferable between transportation, industry, commerce and the home. And it can draw out materials from base objects, like how nuka cola machines generate new cola, probably from their water hookups that in the modern day just refrigerate. The prewar world didn't need to be destroyed, and in fact in terms of probability, Fallout is the one in a million this actually happened in this corner of the multiverse.

[TrickyVein]

I'm willing to buy the idea that the nuclear exchange should be considered separately from the resource wars (but only somewhat). As I'm sure you're aware, we're just passing the 50th anniversary of the Cuban missile crisis when the future was held hostage by only three people: Khrushchev, Castro, and Kennedy. It's more than likely than Cheng himself gave the order given the circumstances, but correct me if I'm wrong - this is still speculation. It's not canon, and nowhere is it acknowledged, definitively that the Chinese leader was the first to do it. Even then, this is just semantics. It doesn't minimize the conflict of the resource wars, and obviously the war incentivized using nukes. Maybe it wasn't inevitable but that's how it happened. Of course there's a connection. Calling Cheng a monster allows you to detach him from the institutions that created him, rather than analyze those institutions.

 

Distinction between 'real' fiction and 'fantasy' fiction is still fuzzy. But that's a slightly irrelevant, auxiliary topic that I brought up just for the sake of response. The former doesn't hold anything over the latter where relevance is concerned, I agree. I actually see the politics and the power-relationships in AGoT being very sensibly handled and played out, which of course has relevance to European medieval history - either reflecting that history, or more generally how so many events in history are influenced so often through individual's petty feuding with one another. Since this is a post-modern age, the connection is there in the literature if you want it to be. (This is also why I majored in the sciences at university.)

 

Anyway,

 

Yes, it seems people strive for greater organization and social division the more of us there are, and acknowledging this, perhaps the NCR really is unavoidable in the long term. This does not require or demand my participation in the Republic as an individual, however, in 2281. This is where you and I disagree. There are enough frontiers for someone like the courier to bounce around and avoid the NCR, it's laws, and its taxes. The success of any social organization does not depend on its longevity; nothing is permanent, and I'm not arguing that the NCR represents a 'bad' choice because it is doomed to fail at some undetermined point in the future or that it isn't ideal.

 

There are matters of scale. Living in a community is preferable to living under statehood. The Amish, for instance have rejected technology, not because they are reactionists, or crazy fundamentalists, but through a thoughtful evaluation of how so much of modernizing technology creates distance between individuals - and how this distance hurts the community at large. (So why don't you go join the Amish, you say? Because I'm enured to consumerism and the luxury brought on through technology. It's who I am.) When people start pledging allegiance to a flag, to a state, than they allow themselves to see each other as less than people. 'Traitors' to the nation. 'Enemies' of the nation. The United States is moot. Gone. Where are you getting the idea that Nevada belongs to the US? Even the name Nevada and it's boundaries are carry-overs. Where does this mandate come from? Are you being jingoistic? Patriotism, like organized religion is an effective means of controlling large amounts of people for the benefits of the few. It's amazing just how many people think we have a real democracy in the US. It's not - it's representative at best, and I'd feel much better if we got rid of electronic voting machines.

 

We don't have to pledge allegiance to a flag in the Fallout world. It's why I like playing the game, because to some degree it's escapism. It promises a degree of freedom brought on through the destruction of the old-world order. I've always seen the holocaust as ultimately demonstrative of how old-world human institutions failed - that they allowed individuals like Cheng to see the world in such a detached way in the end.

 

We can have this lofty discussion of how the NCR represents the best for the future or how it embodies the worst for the future, but when you get down to it, they're doing a pathetically bad job of implementing their brand of order in the Mojave.

Edited November 19, 2012 by TrickyVein

[trob1000]

I went with the NCR in my first play through. In my second play through, I sided with Yes Man. The NCR is going to start to fall apart in 20 years. The NCR is land crazy and stretched thin. It won't take long for an organized militia to push the NCR out of areas like the Mojave. I would have liked to have seen and independent option where you get to unify the settlements in the area under the rule of a coherent government. This could have been accomplished under the Followers. Even though the Followers are basically pacifist commies, having them unite the Mojave under a democratic government would be a smarter option. Mostly because they actually care about what happens to the people that they help unlike the NCR.

 

Also another thing that annoys me about the fallout world is that the whole thing is one giant desert. Many parts of the world wouldn't have been bombed as bad as DC or LA. Areas like Seattle would still be some what green because they climate is wetter and the area is a lower priority target. It would be good to see a future game be set in an area where the environment's predominant color isn't brown.

[TrickyVein]

Except for opposing the Legion I don't see the Followers as being very political. And even then, their opposition is humanitarian-based. It's one of the reasons I think Arcade decides to join the Followers is because they don't have any political aspirations or seek to meddle about in other people's business. They believe in their mission and the work that they do and that's about it. Like the UN peace keepers except that the Followers actually help some people.

 

The Wasteland is such an important setting for Fallout. Say what you will about how improbable it is for whatever reasons, I hope it never goes away. I believe it's more important for Fallout's themes that some artistic liberty be taken in representing the post-war world then 'to get it right' for a few self-righteous know-it-alls who read some books on climate science. I'm not calling you that, but one notices a certain grouping of opinions on this which disregards the desert's narrative importance for the sake of being factual...as if this is an end in itself.

[Graeystone]

Caeser's Legion - Oh HELL no unless I'm an 'evil mood' just to see how things play out like siding with the Powder Gangers against Goodsprings and so on.

 

Mister House - If he kept his business strictly in New Vegas, then fine.

 

NCR - Frankly the 'regular people' in the Mojave or anywhere else aren't ready for it. If they want a centralized government like the Old US or NCR, then they should make the decision for themselves, not by 'outsiders' like the Legion/NCR. Right now small independent towns and villages are better. Also the human population isn't big enough to justify a central government and the Legion/NCR wants what used to the whole of the United States. A puny population and a whole bunch of empty land. . .right, that makes sense.

 

Then there is the impact the NCR being in charge would have on the Couriers/Mojave Express - there would be no more 'freedom' a Courier has. A Courier represents a 'Free Spirit'. They are not tied down by Government Regulation or worse(to them) Predetermined Routes for everyone(a Courier can only work between Goodsprings and Primm but can never deliever something to New Vegas). As long as the Package gets delievered, distance and how the job gets done doesn't matter. The NCR would frankly ruin the Freedom the Couriers all have.

 

It only took a few hours to destroy known civilization. . .it will take centuries to return to some sembalence(and hopefully better) of the pre-war civilization.

[ManleySteele]

I have tried to get to the late game with both the NCR and the House faction. I always wind up going back to the independent ending. I just can't get beyond individual liberty as the foundation of any real democracy. The legion is too hard for me to stomach. It just cuts to much against the grain of my experience. The courier will have his work cut out after the ending, but better me than someone else controlling all those robots. Is that hubris? Maybe so. I'm thinking about pulling some mods together to run a post hoover dam world. A lot of mods exist that would lend themselves to that idea. I don't know if I will do it, but that is my intention. Probably not do the DLC's until after the final fight. I have done them before, already. What do y'all think?

[peadar1987]

It's interesting to see how many people here are taking the "personal liberty" approach.

 

To me, that's not the most important thing in a post-apocalyptic world. If there's a band of raiders, the white-legs, or the 80s, or whoever, rolling through the Mojave, the only thing that would stop them is a standing army and well-organised defence. If the Mojave existed as a nation state, it could pull an army together from Goodsprings, Vegas, Novac, the 188, and repopulated places like Cottonwood Cove and Nelson to crush them. Otherwise, the raiders can just pick off independent towns one by one, taking whatever they want. Heck, it only took a breakaway handful of Powder Gangers to give Goodsprings a real problem.

[trob1000]

It's interesting to see how many people here are taking the "personal liberty" approach.

 

To me, that's not the most important thing in a post-apocalyptic world. If there's a band of raiders, the white-legs, or the 80s, or whoever, rolling through the Mojave, the only thing that would stop them is a standing army and well-organised defence. If the Mojave existed as a nation state, it could pull an army together from Goodsprings, Vegas, Novac, the 188, and repopulated places like Cottonwood Cove and Nelson to crush them. Otherwise, the raiders can just pick off independent towns one by one, taking whatever they want. Heck, it only took a breakaway handful of Powder Gangers to give Goodsprings a real problem.

This is why it is good to go with the independent ending. I just wish there was a DLC that allowed you to continue on to create an independent nation-state in the Mojave. Then take on the 80's or White legs. This could be an idea for a future game set in the Mojave. Although this is unlikely because it would require good writing to make a story compelling enough to play. Building a nation would require negotiations instead of invading every settlement in the region. Also the settlements would have to be larger and be interesting. You would also need a larger region. Like having the game map extend all the way to Pahrump and other towns around Vegas. Also don't forget about Camp Golf, Boulder City, the ghost town near Red Rock Canyon and Bitter Springs.

 

The NCR is in decline and will collapse at some point in the not to distant future. The NCR lacks an education system that might get people to think differently. The NCR is already circling the drain, the are over extended and half assing the Mojave Campaign. Without interference from the main character, I would expect the Legion to win and take the Mojave. If the NCR did manage to keep the Mojave again, I would expect a coalition of the local settlements to push the NCR out not long after they won. The NCR is going down the drain or not isn't the argument, when it gets into the S bend is.

Edited June 26, 2013 by trob1000