Why you should side with the Stormcloaks

[Lachdonin]

Ok, first off... Issues of provincial succession. Blackmarsh and Elsweyr succeeded first, under the reign of High Chancellor Ocato. Who was frankly one of the worst leaders we have ever seen in TES, and was either a Thalmor agent himself, or just outright incompetent. Summerset and Valenwood succeeded during the consolidating period at the start of the Mede Dynasty, and then until the Great War, the Empire managed to maintain control of ALL OF THE PROVINCES. 130 YEARS of preventing further succession. So you can't just discount their ability to hold territory, when they did so for more than a century. Especially considering that no one really liked the Septim Empire, save Cyrodiil and Skyrim. Under the Septims themselves, interprovincial wars and outright revolts were common place, with provinces trying to rebel against the Empire as early as Tiber's reign.

 

Holding onto the territory, without a divine claim to back you up, for more than a century isn't a feat to just dismiss out of hand.

 

Second, Morrowind. Morrowind is not uninhabitable, and based on information from the Dragonborn expansion, is well on it's way to it's former glory. It's status as an Imperial Province is still nebulous, however, as Morrowind seems to view it's self as independent, while the Empire views it as a province, and that relationship has yet to actually be tested.

 

Third, Highrock. Yes, for most of it's history, it has been a loose collection of feudal powers with no real allegiance to anyone but themselves. However, this changed with the Warp in the West, which resulted in the consolidation of it's territories into a few far more stable kingdoms, all of which were loyal to the Empire. And we've been given no indication that this situation has changed.

 

Fourth, you're very much oversimplifying the overall situation here, so i'm going to try to bring up a few counterpoints.

 

The Empire, as you state, had to commit to trying to keep Skyrim in the fold, because it was either commit resources to holding Skyrim, or lose all the resources Skyrim offered. As with anything, it is an investment gamble. However, the actual investment of resources in Skyrim seems minor. Multiple Legates note that the main body of the Legion is still in Cyrodiil, on the border. Rikke notes that they have been forced to recruit locally because the Empire doesn't want to commit a proper legion to the rebellion. Even Ulfric acknowledges that if the Empire brought it's true might to Skyrim, he would lose (dialogue relating to Emperor Mede's presence in Skyrim). The Empire basically sent a bunch of commanding officers to muster forces WITHIN Skyrim to deal with the Rebellion. That's why it's called the Civil War. It's not Empire vs Skyrim, it's Loyalist Skyrim vs Rebellious Skyrim.

 

Next, Balgruf is not the only source indicating that continued trade and supplies from the Empire are important to Skyrim. Stentor and Saerlund Lawgiver both support that position as well. So the relationship between the Empire and Skyrim remains important to the people of the province, and yes, that does matter, because it ultimately means that a severing of that relationship is going to cause problems. If the Empire is guilty of not caring about the rights of it's people, then the Sotrmcloaks are guilty of not caring about their wellbeing.

 

The sovereignty issue is another point. The Empire does, in fact, recognise and permit the limited sovereignty of it's territories. Its a Federal-Territorial relationship. A Province governs it's self, but must still follow the Federl Laws of the country. Provinces are free to govern their own affairs so long as they do not violate the Empires laws. Which on the scale of Empires is pretty liberal. It is when the actions of the territory violate the higher laws of the Empire, or when the province encounters problems it cannot resolve on it's own, that the Empire intervenes.

 

This recognition of the autonomy of it's territories is most recently seen in the Reach. When the Reachmen rose up and took control of their lands from the Nords, the Empire, we are told, was considering granting them full vassal status. Allowing them to keep the territory and govern themselves, rather than being apart of Skyrim. Instead, the Stormcloaks did exactly what they accuse the Empire of doing, and put down a rebellion that only wanted to express their sovereignty over their own ancestral lands. And this is a big running theme with the Stormcloaks. Do as i say, not as i do.

 

Also of note. ALL LAWS ARE ARBITRARY. They are artificial social constructs designed to encourage, and enforce, particular lines of behaviour amongst large groups of individuals. None of them are inherent or natural.

 

Now, to Ulfric's advocating for independence. First, no, he did not advocate for independence at Markath, nor did he try diplomacy. He issue an ultimatum. Allow Talos worship, or we won't turn over the city. Second, based on what we are told about The Moot, he did not make demands, but rather proposed the idea, no motion was made on it nor did he actively try to sway anyone. And when it came time to try and convince the High King, Ulfric chose to make a statement and kill him instead. So i call bullshit on your reasoning here, because there is literally zero evidence that Ulfric tried to convince Torygg to side with him. Ulfric wanted to make a statement, and murdered his king to do so.

 

This is further reinforced by Ulfric's attack on Whiterun. It's an unprovoked attack on a neutral 3rd party with no strategic value, for the sole purpose of proving a point.

 

Now for the Jarls.

 

The biggest difference in Morthal is the individual motivations of the Jarls themselves. Igrod, though somewhat lost in her own visions, cares about the people of her hold and actively looks to their protection. Sorli only cares about her own enrichment.

 

Winterhold is, basically even, though Korir seems content to wallow in the cities failure while Kraldar seems at least somewhat interested in moving forward.

 

Riften is indeed Maeven one way or the other.

 

Whiterun can't be considered based on the Jarl-dialogue alone. You have to consider Vignar and Balgruf's actions outside of just sitting on the Throne. Vignar is a caustic, accusatory and bitter old man who is openly hostile to anyone with a dissenting point of view. Balgruf is a concerned leader who rushes to the aid of his people and does everything in his power to avoid having them drawn into this conflict. Balgruf shows himself to be far more concerned with the actual wellbeing of those under his leadership than any interaction with Vignar would suggest.

 

Markarth is not exactly the same. Again, you are looking only at their dialogue while sitting in the chair, which ignores the character establishment elsewhere. Thongvar is a hot-headed, aggressive individual who is honestly not that bright. He's totally unaware of his own family's dealings, and his cult-like adoration for Ulfric shows he doesn't really have much of a critical mind. Ingmund is more reserved and calm (though they share a hatred for the Foresworn) but also accepting of his mistakes. Neither are exactly shining examples of leadership, but they aren't the exact same person.

 

Dawnstar, you are totally right. Skald is a raging moron.

 

Falkreath is a difficult choice. Siddgier is a right prick, and a entitled brat. But... Dengier is problematic, because of the signs of his behaviour. His paranoia and accusatory actions, along with his growing fixation on the past, should be recognisable to anyone who has had a loved one suffer from Alzheimer's. Long story short, Siddgier could potentially get better, but Dengier WILL get worse. And a mentally unwell leader is a dangerous thing to have on a throne.

 

As for Windhelm... We've discussed the racism issue before on the Bethesda forums, but the overall point is that they are BOTH racist. You can't just discount one's racism because the other is as well. Both sides of the coin are guilty here. But i do agree that, based on what we see in Windhelm, Ulfric is the superior Jarl. If only because he actually has a degree of character developed, and motivation, whereas Brunwulf is basically just a drone.

 

As for the 2nd Great War... You sorely misunderstand how war and mobilization works, and the scale of the Great War in the first place. 30 years to recover from a major war that wiped out more than half your military forces, in a non-industrial world, is not particularly unreasonable. Especially when you realise that the Empire has had to deal with several outbreaks of violence, rebuilding infrastructure, political divisions amongst it's leadership, and compensating for the total failure of their intelligence systems.

 

The latter is particularly important, because you can't reliably fight an enemy you don't know anything about. The Empire may be back to it's pre-war strength, but that pre-war strength got it's ass handed to it. With no knowledge of the enemies capabilities, the Empire could be looking at invading a Dominion that outnumbers them 3 to 1, or worse. Or they could be invading a Dominion that still hasn't recovered from it's losses. They don't know.

 

Even then, you disregard the fact that multiple Imperial sources indicate that the Empire expects another war. It has been preparing for another war. Whether they will initiate it or not doesn't matter, because ultimately, ONLY IDIOTS WANT WAR. Peace is something to be enjoyed as long as you can hold it together.

 

And all of this is somewhat secondary to the core problem. Who is best suited to ruling Skyrim?

Well, it's not the Stormcloaks. Discounting Ulfric's tenuous political position, the core running theme amongst the Stormcloaks his hypocrisy. They fight for their sovereignty, but were founded to put down those who fought for their own. They believe in ancient tradition, and yet their leader spits in the face of the Way of the Voice, and the Pact of Chieftains. They claim to stand up for what they believe in, yet condemn those who do the same on the other side. The Stormcloaks are a hypocritical populist movement which demands privilege but refuses those same privileges to others. It is their actions which brought the Inquisitors, it is their actions which brought the Legion, and it is their action which has destabilized their country and brought suffering to Skyrim.

 

And does anyone honestly expect them to just roll over and be benevolent leaders afterwards? They check every box for an oppressive autocratic cult of personality movement in history.

 

 

"Does it matter? I am the Dragonborn. If the Thalmor attack, the side i will be fighting with, will win, regardless of being Stormcloaks or Imperials"

 

Tell that to the Nords at Red Mountain. The Thu'um isn't an 'I Win' button, and the last time it was brought to battle, it was so soundly beaten that Jurgen Windcaller had a crisis of faith.

[DoctorKaizeld]

Ok, first off... Issues of provincial succession. Blackmarsh and Elsweyr succeeded first, under the reign of High Chancellor Ocato. Who was frankly one of the worst leaders we have ever seen in TES, and was either a Thalmor agent himself, or just outright incompetent. Summerset and Valenwood succeeded during the consolidating period at the start of the Mede Dynasty, and then until the Great War, the Empire managed to maintain control of ALL OF THE PROVINCES. 130 YEARS of preventing further succession. So you can't just discount their ability to hold territory, when they did so for more than a century. Especially considering that no one really liked the Septim Empire, save Cyrodiil and Skyrim. Under the Septims themselves, interprovincial wars and outright revolts were common place, with provinces trying to rebel against the Empire as early as Tiber's reign.

 

Holding onto the territory, without a divine claim to back you up, for more than a century isn't a feat to just dismiss out of hand.

 

Second, Morrowind. Morrowind is not uninhabitable, and based on information from the Dragonborn expansion, is well on it's way to it's former glory. It's status as an Imperial Province is still nebulous, however, as Morrowind seems to view it's self as independent, while the Empire views it as a province, and that relationship has yet to actually be tested.

 

Third, Highrock. Yes, for most of it's history, it has been a loose collection of feudal powers with no real allegiance to anyone but themselves. However, this changed with the Warp in the West, which resulted in the consolidation of it's territories into a few far more stable kingdoms, all of which were loyal to the Empire. And we've been given no indication that this situation has changed.

 

Fourth, you're very much oversimplifying the overall situation here, so i'm going to try to bring up a few counterpoints.

 

The Empire, as you state, had to commit to trying to keep Skyrim in the fold, because it was either commit resources to holding Skyrim, or lose all the resources Skyrim offered. As with anything, it is an investment gamble. However, the actual investment of resources in Skyrim seems minor. Multiple Legates note that the main body of the Legion is still in Cyrodiil, on the border. Rikke notes that they have been forced to recruit locally because the Empire doesn't want to commit a proper legion to the rebellion. Even Ulfric acknowledges that if the Empire brought it's true might to Skyrim, he would lose (dialogue relating to Emperor Mede's presence in Skyrim). The Empire basically sent a bunch of commanding officers to muster forces WITHIN Skyrim to deal with the Rebellion. That's why it's called the Civil War. It's not Empire vs Skyrim, it's Loyalist Skyrim vs Rebellious Skyrim.

 

Next, Balgruf is not the only source indicating that continued trade and supplies from the Empire are important to Skyrim. Stentor and Saerlund Lawgiver both support that position as well. So the relationship between the Empire and Skyrim remains important to the people of the province, and yes, that does matter, because it ultimately means that a severing of that relationship is going to cause problems. If the Empire is guilty of not caring about the rights of it's people, then the Sotrmcloaks are guilty of not caring about their wellbeing.

 

The sovereignty issue is another point. The Empire does, in fact, recognise and permit the limited sovereignty of it's territories. Its a Federal-Territorial relationship. A Province governs it's self, but must still follow the Federl Laws of the country. Provinces are free to govern their own affairs so long as they do not violate the Empires laws. Which on the scale of Empires is pretty liberal. It is when the actions of the territory violate the higher laws of the Empire, or when the province encounters problems it cannot resolve on it's own, that the Empire intervenes.

 

This recognition of the autonomy of it's territories is most recently seen in the Reach. When the Reachmen rose up and took control of their lands from the Nords, the Empire, we are told, was considering granting them full vassal status. Allowing them to keep the territory and govern themselves, rather than being apart of Skyrim. Instead, the Stormcloaks did exactly what they accuse the Empire of doing, and put down a rebellion that only wanted to express their sovereignty over their own ancestral lands. And this is a big running theme with the Stormcloaks. Do as i say, not as i do.

 

Also of note. ALL LAWS ARE ARBITRARY. They are artificial social constructs designed to encourage, and enforce, particular lines of behaviour amongst large groups of individuals. None of them are inherent or natural.

 

Now, to Ulfric's advocating for independence. First, no, he did not advocate for independence at Markath, nor did he try diplomacy. He issue an ultimatum. Allow Talos worship, or we won't turn over the city. Second, based on what we are told about The Moot, he did not make demands, but rather proposed the idea, no motion was made on it nor did he actively try to sway anyone. And when it came time to try and convince the High King, Ulfric chose to make a statement and kill him instead. So i call bulls*** on your reasoning here, because there is literally zero evidence that Ulfric tried to convince Torygg to side with him. Ulfric wanted to make a statement, and murdered his king to do so.

 

This is further reinforced by Ulfric's attack on Whiterun. It's an unprovoked attack on a neutral 3rd party with no strategic value, for the sole purpose of proving a point.

 

Now for the Jarls.

 

The biggest difference in Morthal is the individual motivations of the Jarls themselves. Igrod, though somewhat lost in her own visions, cares about the people of her hold and actively looks to their protection. Sorli only cares about her own enrichment.

 

Winterhold is, basically even, though Korir seems content to wallow in the cities failure while Kraldar seems at least somewhat interested in moving forward.

 

Riften is indeed Maeven one way or the other.

 

Whiterun can't be considered based on the Jarl-dialogue alone. You have to consider Vignar and Balgruf's actions outside of just sitting on the Throne. Vignar is a caustic, accusatory and bitter old man who is openly hostile to anyone with a dissenting point of view. Balgruf is a concerned leader who rushes to the aid of his people and does everything in his power to avoid having them drawn into this conflict. Balgruf shows himself to be far more concerned with the actual wellbeing of those under his leadership than any interaction with Vignar would suggest.

 

Markarth is not exactly the same. Again, you are looking only at their dialogue while sitting in the chair, which ignores the character establishment elsewhere. Thongvar is a hot-headed, aggressive individual who is honestly not that bright. He's totally unaware of his own family's dealings, and his cult-like adoration for Ulfric shows he doesn't really have much of a critical mind. Ingmund is more reserved and calm (though they share a hatred for the Foresworn) but also accepting of his mistakes. Neither are exactly shining examples of leadership, but they aren't the exact same person.

 

Dawnstar, you are totally right. Skald is a raging moron.

 

Falkreath is a difficult choice. Siddgier is a right prick, and a entitled brat. But... Dengier is problematic, because of the signs of his behaviour. His paranoia and accusatory actions, along with his growing fixation on the past, should be recognisable to anyone who has had a loved one suffer from Alzheimer's. Long story short, Siddgier could potentially get better, but Dengier WILL get worse. And a mentally unwell leader is a dangerous thing to have on a throne.

 

As for Windhelm... We've discussed the racism issue before on the Bethesda forums, but the overall point is that they are BOTH racist. You can't just discount one's racism because the other is as well. Both sides of the coin are guilty here. But i do agree that, based on what we see in Windhelm, Ulfric is the superior Jarl. If only because he actually has a degree of character developed, and motivation, whereas Brunwulf is basically just a drone.

 

As for the 2nd Great War... You sorely misunderstand how war and mobilization works, and the scale of the Great War in the first place. 30 years to recover from a major war that wiped out more than half your military forces, in a non-industrial world, is not particularly unreasonable. Especially when you realise that the Empire has had to deal with several outbreaks of violence, rebuilding infrastructure, political divisions amongst it's leadership, and compensating for the total failure of their intelligence systems.

 

The latter is particularly important, because you can't reliably fight an enemy you don't know anything about. The Empire may be back to it's pre-war strength, but that pre-war strength got it's ass handed to it. With no knowledge of the enemies capabilities, the Empire could be looking at invading a Dominion that outnumbers them 3 to 1, or worse. Or they could be invading a Dominion that still hasn't recovered from it's losses. They don't know.

 

Even then, you disregard the fact that multiple Imperial sources indicate that the Empire expects another war. It has been preparing for another war. Whether they will initiate it or not doesn't matter, because ultimately, ONLY IDIOTS WANT WAR. Peace is something to be enjoyed as long as you can hold it together.

 

And all of this is somewhat secondary to the core problem. Who is best suited to ruling Skyrim?

 

Well, it's not the Stormcloaks. Discounting Ulfric's tenuous political position, the core running theme amongst the Stormcloaks his hypocrisy. They fight for their sovereignty, but were founded to put down those who fought for their own. They believe in ancient tradition, and yet their leader spits in the face of the Way of the Voice, and the Pact of Chieftains. They claim to stand up for what they believe in, yet condemn those who do the same on the other side. The Stormcloaks are a hypocritical populist movement which demands privilege but refuses those same privileges to others. It is their actions which brought the Inquisitors, it is their actions which brought the Legion, and it is their action which has destabilized their country and brought suffering to Skyrim.

 

And does anyone honestly expect them to just roll over and be benevolent leaders afterwards? They check every box for an oppressive autocratic cult of personality movement in history.

 

 

 

"Does it matter? I am the Dragonborn. If the Thalmor attack, the side i will be fighting with, will win, regardless of being Stormcloaks or Imperials"

 

Tell that to the Nords at Red Mountain. The Thu'um isn't an 'I Win' button, and the last time it was brought to battle, it was so soundly beaten that Jurgen Windcaller had a crisis of faith.

Thats a good run down and I agree entirely

[SkyrimUser72]

If the Nords crush the empire than the Thalmor win?

 

Nord DragonBorn: Defeat the WorldEater, defeat previous DragonBorn(Also Nord), Found and destroyed who stole his sweetroll.

 

Nord Dragonborn: Am i joke or something?

 

Those racist nords, there so bad and the Imperials are so good. This makes so much sense when you think about all the non nords living in Windhelm, and then you consider the fact you can traverse to anywhere on the map,from Windhelm in one day on foot, why do they stay in Windhelm?

 

In ulta diverse Windhelm, you even have an Imperial male, named Calixto. He kills all types of Women, but he's not a racist nord, right? Great guy.

 

With all nord haters(Christian haters,and Im a non-religious dude), in 2020 i cant believe there is no mod that removes some of the non-nords from Windhelm to Imperial Towns/Village, since they won't take day trek on their own.

 

Furthermore, I don't think there is another town that has more non-humanoids living there than Windhelm?Prove me wrong!

 

People want to associate Talos with Christianity, that's on you. We need to stop with the Nords are Racist s#*!, You got a shithead dark elf running NewGuinessClub in Windhelm "So some Nord women are being killed, I couldn't care less?"(wish there was a quested brawl for that dick) i guess that statement cant compete with "How come you dark elves won't help up in fight against Imperials" How dare him, dark elf bartender is a saint though.

 

For the record the one Nord who is giving female hard time when first entering Windhelm gets his ass kicked by me in every playthrough,

"run that s#*! at a dark elf male and leave the women alone you f*#@ing coward", there is even 2 of them at that initial scene, I stand by her side every time, as excepted being that I play as a True Son of Skyrim.

[Lachdonin]

If the Nords crush the empire than the Thalmor win?

 

Nord DragonBorn: Defeat the WorldEater, defeat previous DragonBorn(Also Nord), Found and destroyed who stole his sweetroll.

 

Nord Dragonborn: Am i joke or something?

 

Yes, because not only does that line of thinking totally discount the equal chance that the Dragonborn sides with the Empire, but anyone who thinks the Dragonborn is going to persist in Skyrim after the end of the game is delusional. Heroes disappear for one reason or another

once their job is done.

 

 

 

Furthermore, I don't think there is another town that has more non-humanoids living there than Windhelm?Prove me wrong!

 

I also don't think there's another town with a greater degree of racial segregation. Prove ME wrong!

 

 

being that I play as a True Son of Skyrim.

 

So you mod the game to play as a Falmer?

Edited January 27, 2020 by Lachdonin

[SkyrimUser72]

@Lachdonin you can read what your typing right? Segregated? How should Ulfric gone about setting up his town when he Kindly let the Dark Elves live there, should he of kicked the Shatter Shields out of their home so the dark elves could have a nice house on that side of town?

They got sent to the part of town that was accessible, Segregated, I have dark elves walking around town all the time, I don't see guards messing with them, Segregated? is that how Niranye got her stand in town plaza? Oh,but they don't let Argonians in their town, how is the one argonian in Solitude working out? Guys a scumbag. Stormcloaks are in a war, they should just let everybody in even those everybody's that don't want help with war and only want to complain, oh and they should kick some families out of their home and move them to grey quarters side of town to be fair with the people they are helping who wont help them, makes so much sence.

 

 

Falmer? I never heard a falmer make claim to Skyrim, maybe in tes2 when they could talk? This was funny thank you. On that account I guess everybody except cave dwelling beings that cant talk should leave Skyrim.What is the name of the Nords homeland? And do the Thalmor have a homeland where they can dictate to people how they have to think? Personal, in real life I don't subscribe to Religion, I love people faithfully adhering to religion, just don't tread on me with it. In real life, there have been groups of people that would kill you dead if you believed something they didn't, not right, NEVER Right.

 

 

So the dark elves come to Skyrim, and I guess the nords weren't racist then, or darks didn't know? Do they pay taxes? Do they help the people helping them with the war? do they complain a lot? Yes they do that.

 

 

I don't know lore, I guess since the Grey Quarters are schlums, dark elves must've just got there before my player first visited,There is money being made there The dark elves are working, not helping in war, don't think they pay taxes, i guess in a few months in game they will start making grey quarters nice.(it's actually really nice in my game)

 

2 jerks at beginning scene, every High elf is a jerk, idk?

 

Maybe colonialism or imperialism is your thing. Pretty sure High Elves have their own land to lay down doctrines for its inhabitants, kinda think Imperial have their own land too.

 

I have never seen it, I'm sure users are out there, but any users that's like "F" the nords, and "F" the thalmor. Fine, thats cool. But rather what I see is people hating nords because there bad, but not hating Thalmor,in fact nord haters typically love Thalmor. To me, that's like hating 1 religion, but not saying anything about any other religion when there are other religions unquestionable just has bad, if not worse.

 

 

Looks like Skyrim, belongs to the Nords to me, Falmer?

https://game-skyrim.fandom.com/wiki/Nord

[stebbinsd]

Hey SkyrimUser72, perhaps this really old video of mine might take the words right out of your mouth:

 

As well as this slightly more recent one:

Edited January 27, 2020 by stebbinsd

[steamteck]

Well, I disagree on a lot of your points but like yourself, am unwilling to go through all the old arguments again. frankly, I firmly believe Bethesda put enough conflicting info in there for you to feel comfortable with whichever side you want.... and supply evidence for it. That's pretty cool.