AUSTRALIA, Should we have a National ID Card system?

[Tidus44]

The only governments that want every citizen identified, categorized and controlled are ones that are incompetent or afraid and entirely stupid. Unfortunately, Australia isn't the only country talking about this and considering implementing a common ID for the entire country.

 

I have yet to see one good justification for a common ID. The problems the politicians are trying to fix won't be fixed by a common ID. It just creates more problems.

 

A national ID card system will not prevent fraud, crime or terrorism. Terrorists and criminals will be able to obtain (legally or illegally) an ID. ID is an impractical and ineffective proposal to stop illegal activity. It is a simplistic and stupid attempt to solve complex problems. Just look at video games. They put every kind of "security" system in place to prevent piracy and before the game is officially released, pirated copies are already out. The government here spent hundreds of thousands on new money that "can't" be counterfeited and guess what? The week the money was released counterfeits were found.

Those that want a fake ID will duplicate or break whatever technology in about 15 seconds and the ID system will be useless.

 

The system would create huge problems.

A national ID would require a database of every person with continually updated information that would have to be accurate. An error could make someone unemployable or even worse - denied health care or assistance until they get their file straightened out. Ever had to deal with a government worker on anything regarding services? Ever wonder where all the D minus and high school drop outs work?

What happens when an ID card is stolen or lost? How do I prove who I am without an ID card?

Exactly how much is this system going to cost to set up and maintain?

 

It is completely unlikely that the system would be used for only its stated purpose. Law enforcement and government agencies will want to access it; employers, bank and credit agencies, direct mailers - just a long list of agencies and people would want access, and some would get access. So much for "secure" information.

The UK on the last go around on an ID program even said that they may offset the cost of the system by selling mailing lists. Which reminds me, hey Blair and Cameron, I want my 60GBP back that I paid for a useless card that has been abandoned by your idiot government.

 

A national identity card would also lead to greater discrimination and harassment. Failure to carry the ID would likely come to be viewed as a reason for search, detention or arrest, especially of minorities, as well as constant identity checks from police, banks and others.

 

The government here says if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear from a government ID. I ask, since I have nothing to hide or fear, why does the government want or need to track me?

[Vagrant0]

I've never had any problems regarding my ID personally. Nobody has gone and tracked me down because they disliked what my parents named me, sent out national alerts to deny me service for my political beliefs, or anything silly like that. I can understand the situations involved with what Bben described, but most of those are unique to those who had previously gone out of their way to stay unregistered. About the only time it even gets used is in cases where they need some sort of verified identity in order to pay wages, administer treatments, or other financially related matters where identity becomes critical.

 

If you're going to a hospital, or worse, if you're involved in an accident and are sent to one, having some form of legitimate ID could help them determine what medicines you might have an allergic reaction to as well as what your previous medical history is... So that they don't accidentally kill you unless someone really f*#@s up.

 

If you're going to work for a company, they NEED to know who is being employed, especially for things like criminal background checks, proof of citizenship, ect. This is important for the employer since it helps determine how genuine and trustworthy an individual is that they have interviewed since an employer should know if you're a sex offender or have a criminal past and what the details of these things are in order to determine if you are right for the job. All it takes is one sicko pervert who is running a child porn ring out of a drivethru window to cause legal problems for a company. It also becomes important regarding education credentials, so that the person being hired for a position has proper background in a particular field.

 

I've never had any problems with it, and it has probably made life easier.

[ginnyfizz]

This may well be a first but I do totally agree with the post by Tidus44. It is the same sort of arguments that I was using when the ID card system was being touted. As soon as the first ID cards were in circulation your not so friendly neighbourhood criminals and terrorists would have credible forgeries on the streets. Solves no problems, creates plenty more.

 

My argument in citing the fact that you are already asked to produce ID in certain circumstances in the UK was not meant to imply that I am in favour of ID cards. If anything it was saying that since you will already de facto be required to produce forms of ID in certain situations, why would another layer of ID be needed? It would not prevent crime or terrorism (or employing illegals) any more than the current system does.

 

I can understand how companies are under legal obligations to check who they are employing, and not just for your immigration status/right to work. But prove your educational credentials, eeeuw (that's a sore point for me as my dotty old Ma burned my certificates not so long ago, hehe!). I am accustomed to providing evidence of my right to work in the UK, providing references and my resume (so said credentials can be checked with previous employers and educational institutions, especially if you have a pyromaniac batty old Ma), and for certain posts you just know that you will be asked to undergo a Criminal Records Check - eg working with children and young persons, working in Welfare to Work, health and social services, etc, etc.

 

Costs me a ruddy fortune to get new copies of my certs...

[Tidus44]

@Vagrant0;

 

I agree that it would be very nice to have a single all-in-one card with all the personal information about me, my education, my employment records, my bank information, my health records, my driver's license, my income tax information and whatever information the government or any agency may want or need from me. However, the issue is not about having or showing ID, it's about security and accuracy of the information and the uselessness of such a system.

 

Since this all-in-one card would be full of all the information about me anyone could possibly want, there would be scanner/readers pretty much everywhere that would be able to read the information. How will these devices be secured so some unscrupulous person does not get a reader so they can take all the information about me off my card and then sell it to someone else? How will all the people who have access to a reader (even legally) be scrutinized to ensure they all stay honest and trustworthy and not steal the information?

 

My security right now is that the various cards I hold to demonstrate I have a privilege (driver's license) or a right to service I've paid for (health insurance) are separate, distinct and only have a limited amount of information. Most of the information on me isn't even on the cards and the card is only a number that is not connected to me except indirectly.

 

I have to question the thought of the medical information or criminal check information that may be on a card. I was a fire fighter for a good number of years. I had a medical card that had basic information about me that could be used by emergency room people in the event I was hurt. It was only possible to have the card updated every two years and it was expensive for me and I hate to think of the drain (and cost) it placed on the medical system that was testing and examining me (and all the other fire fighters and police) to update a card when it could have been looking after sick people.

I also cut more people out of vehicles who were injured and picked up more casualties of heart attack, stroke, falls, substance abuse, animal bites and hang nails than I can or care to think of, and the only time I ever looked for ID was if a cop asked if the victim had ID on them, and then rarely did they. ER people don't need to know and if they do give something someone is allergic to, they see that pretty quick and can counteract to avoid any problems. I have asked lots of people if they are allergic to something on a trip to a hospital in the back of an ambulance and had them say "no" and then find out they are allergic at the hospital, so if the individual doesn't know for sure, why would the card know? I cannot even imagine the cost let alone the stress on the medical system of updating everyone's card for medical information to ensure accuracy.

 

Same thing for the criminal record check. How valid is it? Is the card a year old, two, five? And really, if someone wanted to hide their past or conduct illegal activities as an employee, why would they provide a legal and accurate card? I think I'd trust the system now as I can pick up a phone and get confirmation of a criminal record check in a few minutes. I doubt that would be possible with a national ID card.

 

All a ID system would do is place another huge cost and set of problems on people who do not need to be tracked and watched by a government.

The silliness of the idea that government would want to do something nasty to individuals isn't even a consideration. Its security and cost and usefulness of the system.

[JimboUK]

I wouldn't recommend refusing to produce ID if it is the case that you are a benefit claimant and have been sent to the interview under a direction from the JobCentrePlus. Unless you can afford a benefit sanction of at least three months. In theory you can't be forced, in practice you can.

 

You won't get dragged down the police station for refusing to produce one, there's a big difference between having to prove your identity for banking, benefits or whatever and being obliged to produce it to some busybody plod or other jumped up official. Then there was the database behind it, that truly was frightening.

[ginnyfizz]

I did say that I thought the ID card thing was a bad idea, never did agree with it. I am just saying that there are circumstances where you do need to produce ID now, so no-one needs an extra layer or another database. After all you can't trust our shower of mushroom fodder to keep the databases they already have secure...

[brokenergy]

Everyone in the world has a voluntary national ID card scheme, it's called a driver's licence and it has info like your birthday, your home address and other info. While a ID card sounds nice in theory, it would be a huge waste of paperwork.

[Syco21]

Vagrant stated that his IDs haven't caused him any grief, he's lucky! Hundreds of thousands of other people, not so much.

 

What kinds of problems can arise from errors in government databases?

 

• Being arrested for car theft after buying a new car.
• Being issued someone else's tickets.
• Being arrested for a suspended license that isn't suspended.
• Being charged for some else's toll violation.
• Duplicated ID numbers in the same system.
• Reporter monitored for public objection to traffic cams.
• Infants on No Fly List due to suspected terrorism.

 

 

These are just a few examples, there are many, many more.

 

 

 

[Vagrant0]

Vagrant stated that his IDs haven't caused him any grief, he's lucky! Hundreds of thousands of other people, not so much.

 

What kinds of problems can arise from errors in government databases?

 

• Being arrested for car theft after buying a new car.
• Being issued someone else's tickets.
• Being arrested for a suspended license that isn't suspended.
• Being charged for some else's toll violation.
• Duplicated ID numbers in the same system.
• Reporter monitored for public objection to traffic cams.
• Infants on No Fly List due to suspected terrorism.

 

 

These are just a few examples, there are many, many more.

You forgot to mention the people who are claiming government assistance under multiple names, people who falsify documents to gain employment, or any number of other illegal activities to exploit the system.

 

Just because there are problems, does not mean they are particularly common, or any more frequent than any other sort of bureaucratic cockup. But that's a problem with the agencies who run such a system, not the nature of the system or the reasons why it exists. In a bag of microwave popcorn, there will always be a handful of kernels which don't pop; does that mean that you should denounce popcorn completely, or just accept that about 0.4% of the bag will not meet your expectations and enjoy the rest?

 

For the most part, the majority of the problems only happen at the beginning of implementation since there are very few who actually know what to do about it all, or when there is some substantial change in how this information is used (see Patriot Act). But, as the world continues to move toward an importance of credit and credentials, almost every country will need to establish some way of recording their population at the individual level. Personally I would prefer to carry a card around with me that I need to renew and take a bad picture for, than have a microchip or barcode on my body, or have to submit myself to frequent retinal scans so that I can do anything within society.

[JanusForbeare]

 

Personally, beyond the expense needed to institute and maintain a system like this, I wouldn't have a huge problem with it. The amount of personal information that is already available to the public is mind-boggling - you just need to know where to look. There will always be corrupt individuals in power who will take advantage of their access to personal information, and giving them one more potential database to search isn't going to make one heck of a difference. Similarly, there will always be social leeches who try to take advantage of the system, as Vagrant0 pointed out, and centralizing their records will make their schemes considerably more difficult to realize.