Lachdonin Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Something i just discovered... The unrest in Bravil, which brought about the desicration of the Night Mothers tomb, was not, in fact, caused by a civil uprising. Cicero's journal indicates that it was, in fact, a drug war between Skooma dealers. Because crime and drugs are not generally indicitive of the social stability of a nation (particularly in pre-industrial societies) but rather regionable accessability (Bravil borders Eslwyrr, and Skooma is made of Moonsugar) and poverty (Bravil is also a dump) it can't really be used as a represention of revolutionary tendancies across the Empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraeten Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Something i just discovered... The unrest in Bravil, which brought about the desicration of the Night Mothers tomb, was not, in fact, caused by a civil uprising. Cicero's journal indicates that it was, in fact, a drug war between Skooma dealers. Because crime and drugs are not generally indicitive of the social stability of a nation (particularly in pre-industrial societies) but rather regionable accessability (Bravil borders Eslwyrr, and Skooma is made of Moonsugar) and poverty (Bravil is also a dump) it can't really be used as a represention of revolutionary tendancies across the Empire. Excellent point. Although it still surprises me people present a raving lunatic like cicero as a good source of information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Excellent point. Although it still surprises me people present a raving lunatic like cicero as a good source of information. In an age of darkness, a blind man may guide. In an age of madness, look to the madman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraeten Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 (edited) In an age of darkness, a blind man may guide. In an age of madness, look to the madman.I wouldn't describe the era Skyrim takes place in as an age of madness. I'd probably describe it as an age of stupidity personally, but what you said sounds cool so I'll let it slide. :tongue: Edited December 4, 2012 by Kraeten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RighthandofSithis Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Something i just discovered... The unrest in Bravil, which brought about the desicration of the Night Mothers tomb, was not, in fact, caused by a civil uprising. Cicero's journal indicates that it was, in fact, a drug war between Skooma dealers. Because crime and drugs are not generally indicitive of the social stability of a nation (particularly in pre-industrial societies) but rather regionable accessability (Bravil borders Eslwyrr, and Skooma is made of Moonsugar) and poverty (Bravil is also a dump) it can't really be used as a represention of revolutionary tendancies across the Empire. Excellent point. Although it still surprises me people present a raving lunatic like cicero as a good source of information. His insanity has no effect on his ability to recall events. He can recognize the player as the Listener based on one line amidst what must be an extensive tome. His actions infer that something serious must have happened. He is corroborated to an extent by Astrid. And above all, he is the only one who has documented recent events, meaning he is pretty much the best source we have. I think he is somewhat reliable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Tamriel IS madness. But i digress, i was trying to interject a Warhammer joke into the conversation, and it wasn't really the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RighthandofSithis Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 (edited) Something i just discovered... The unrest in Bravil, which brought about the desicration of the Night Mothers tomb, was not, in fact, caused by a civil uprising. Cicero's journal indicates that it was, in fact, a drug war between Skooma dealers. Because crime and drugs are not generally indicitive of the social stability of a nation (particularly in pre-industrial societies) but rather regionable accessability (Bravil borders Eslwyrr, and Skooma is made of Moonsugar) and poverty (Bravil is also a dump) it can't really be used as a represention of revolutionary tendancies across the Empire. Yes, I know about that. I don't recall saying that Cyrodiil was in a revolutionary situation, only Skyrim. Cyrodiil is not expereincing a revolutionary situation. In fact, they are probably experiencing a reactionary situation (with the exception of perhaps Bruma). The significant problem with drug lords and severe banditry, however, is further evidence that the Empire cannot sustain itself. Edited December 4, 2012 by RighthandofSithis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 (edited) I'm not sure if it was you, Imperistan, or some other contributer, and i don't really want to sift through 11 pages of text... May not even have been this discussion... Regardless, there was a post somewhere, at some time, which indicated the events in Bravil as a sign of general unrest in the Empire. Because it was, in fact a drug war (hell, we get those all the time in politically stable cities) it can't be used as a representation of the general oppinion of the population of Cyrodiil, let alone the rest of the Empire. As an asside, breifly perusing your mod link, Sithis, i must say... Morag Tong - Dark Brotherhood (which i assume is what is implied by the referance to the void and webspinner) ... Awesome idea. Edited December 4, 2012 by Lachdonin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RighthandofSithis Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 I'm not sure if it was you, Imperistan, or some other contributer, and i don't really want to sift through 11 pages of text... May not even have been this discussion... Regardless, there was a post somewhere, at some time, which indicated the events in Bravil as a sign of general unrest in the Empire. Because it was, in fact a drug war (hell, we get those all the time in politically stable cities) it can't be used as a representation of the general oppinion of the population of Cyrodiil, let alone the rest of the Empire. As an asside, breifly perusing your mod link, Sithis, i must say... Morag Tong - Dark Brotherhood (which i assume is what is implied by the referance to the void and webspinner) ... Awesome idea. Cicero does state in his journal that "Cheydinhal has erupted into violence and chaos, like so many other cities before it." He later says to the player that the Imperial province is ravaged by strife. So i think its fair to say that recent activities in bravil are indeed representative of the entire province. Of course, these are unlikely to be revolutionary actions, but as such, they pose a problem in their own right. There are no revolutionary sentiments to direct against the Thalmor, and the EMpire is either unable (financially or militarily) or unwilling (a sign of corruption) to end this violence. And thanks for noticing my mod. Its nice to see we're still getting attention. By the way, how are you at modding. We really need some modders. So far its been writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasperTheLich Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 i guess it’s time for me to chime in, in yet another of these threads.As for who is good or evil… as this thread was originally about… and as so many before have stated:Neither the imperial legion nor the stormcloak rebels are technically evil. The thalmor on the other hand seem to be about as evil as they come. about how the emperor botched the WGC at the end of the great war… that’s a bit tricky to answer, but I’ll give it a go. At the start of the war the empire lost its eyes and ears, when the thalmor smashed the imperial intelligence service (the blades were not officially a part of the imperial infrastructure either militarily or politically speaking, but still functioned independently on behalf of the empire). even though the battle of the red ring was technically an imperial victory, the emperor had no way of knowing the remaining strength of the dominion forces. It was still foolish to accept the original conditions the dominion was demanding; however, there needed to be strife in skyrim so it was a plot device, nothing more. And fielding a military force especially a large one is far more complicated then getting a group of men together, arming them, and sending them out there. the imperial army had won at this point but was in no condition to launch a counter attack into the summerset isles. or valenwood (valenwood would have been a disaster, well even more so then attacking summerset) as for who was right or wrong (which isn’t necessarily good or evil), I think given the situation as a whole… going stormcloak is at least slightly less “right” then going imperial. I also think ulfric was foolish to become the aggressor by attacking whiterun. If he were smart, he would have pushed the imperial army to action by outmaneuvering the legion politically, forcing the imperial army to strike first so he could turn them into the aggressor of the conflict; and so painting himself the protector of skyrim fending off the invading imperial army. And also the possibility of ulfric being a dominion operative itself should be enough to give any stormcloak supporter pause. just my 2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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