Which one is "good", which one is "evil"?

[RighthandofSithis]

Yes, but a wise leader would have recognised that if the Thalmor were willing to accept a peace deal following a massive defeat, there would have to have been a reason for it. As such, he could still have pushed for fairer terms. Edited December 4, 2012 by RighthandofSithis

[CasperTheLich]

Yes, but a wise leader would have recognised that if the Thalmor were willing to accept a peace deal following a massive defeat, there would have to have been a reason for it. As such, he could still have pushed for fairer terms.

 

i never said otherwise... or i don't think i did, though i didn't come right out and say it i suppose. yes you are right... sorry for the confusion.

[imperistan]

Thing was though, as I already stated, the Dominion needed not be invaded after the War of the Red Ring. The fighting could (and most likely would) have centered around Hammerfel (which hindsight shows us was going to be kept in the war with teh Dominion for 5 years anyway, and while Mede might not have known that was going to happen, if he took the time to gain his bearings and actually assess the situation in Tamriel, not just Cyrodiil, he would have seen that he would have been capable of at least stopping the war outright, if not going on to fight it until the Dominion would be forced to cede total victory out of sheer economic starvation and exhaustion (which hindsight tells us is exactly what Hammerfel did, on its own. The situation could only been improved by the Legion's help, no matter how devastated it was). And indeed, perhaps with a glimmer of hope and perhaps a pittance of luck, perhaps conquer the Dominion entirely and bring the Empire closer to where it was before it promptly died and was replaced by the Mede dynasty.

 

Indeed, it still seems that people miss that very very crucial point. Hammerfel virtually beat the Dominion, beat them hard enough that they got to keep all of their lands and had to cede absolutely nothing to the Dominion. And this was with a single, fractured Legion and whatever militia could be aroused. That the Dominion could not actually defeat this force and take Hammerfel in its entirety shows that with the rest of the Legion's help, Hammerfel would not only have done far better in that war, but also would have been instrumental in allowing the Empire to put the Dominion in its place and lose nothing in the process.

 

That in of itself speaks extremely high of the competancy of not only Mede himself, but also his Generals, most of which are likely to still be alive during Skyrim's events and this is completely disregarding the WGC and the reality of the Civil War. It all paints the Empire as a terrible option to side with, with its merits mostly based on some misplaced sense of authority and security that people seem to like to give the Empire, even though it completely lacks both.

 

The Empire has politically doomed itself with the only ally that could actually secure its chances in a new war with the Dominion, cannot hold onto its most important province (losing Skyrim splits the Empire in half, quite literally cutting both sides off from each other. No supply line is going to get through Skyrim and its highly unlikely that Hammerfel is going to start allowing convoys to move through its territory) in anywhere near a secure way, and has repeatedly shown that the competency of nearly all of its leaders is no where near the levle it would have to be to secure an actual chance against the Dominion, a force that grows stronger with every passing day that its allowed not only to rebuild the losses it incurred during the Great War (Which btw, were relatively greater compared to the Empire's. And none needed an intelligence agency like the Blades to figure that out) but to also romp around the heartland, putting citizens to death (I don't buy that Talos worshippers are the only ones being carted away under the authority of the Concordat) and having ample freedom and room to spy on virtually all of the Empire's major activities.

 

Why anyone who actually looks at all of this and continues to support the Empire is just beyond me.

[CasperTheLich]

the dominion's military was ravaged by the great war as was the imperial army, and yes the dominion did get it a lot worse, however time is still on the empire's side in a new thalmor war. the dominions war machine is recovering at a much reduced rate compared to that of the legion, if the empire can put off the start of a new conflict without wasting the resources it needs to rebuild the imperial army with, they will be in far better shape compared to the dominion, assuming the empire can avoid wasting resources in say fighting a costly civil war; IMHO, it was smart for the legion to use mostly local resources to combat the stormcloak rebellion to preserve what resources they were able to in an effort to rebuild the rest of the imperial army.

[RighthandofSithis]

the dominion's military was ravaged by the great war as was the imperial army, and yes the dominion did get it a lot worse, however time is still on the empire's side in a new thalmor war. the dominions war machine is recovering at a much reduced rate compared to that of the legion, if the empire can put off the start of a new conflict without wasting the resources it needs to rebuild the imperial army with, they will be in far better shape compared to the dominion, assuming the empire can avoid wasting resources in say fighting a costly civil war; IMHO, it was smart for the legion to use mostly local resources to combat the stormcloak rebellion to preserve what resources they were able to in an effort to rebuild the rest of the imperial army.

 

While I agree that the Dominion's recovery would be considerably slower than that of human nations (as Elves mature much slower than humans), I don't think that's a reason to side with the Empire.

 

The Empire's recovery is based around it putting down the violence in Skyrim and Cyrodiil. This requires both funds and soldiers. Tullius states that the Legion is to overstretched to send soldiers to settle the violence. Financially, I'm not sure if the Imperial treasury could have recovered. Following such a devastating war, the Imperial infrastructure and industry was probably ruined, and the treasury completely spent (this is evident in the Markarth incident, thy couldn't pay the mercenaries, so they offered religious freedom instead). Its unlikely that Cyrodiil has recovered much of its infrastructure (if anything, its gotten worse with all the violence), making it completely dependent on High Rock and Skyrim for taxes and equipment.

 

EDIT: I suppose that further possible evidence that the Empire is in dire economic straights is that they are attempting to nationalise Cidhna Mine.

Edited December 5, 2012 by RighthandofSithis

[CasperTheLich]

i wasn't saying that's my reason to side with the empire, i was trying to explain why delaying the start of a new conflict with the dominion was the smarter play for the empire. that's all.

[AnimeOtaku102]

Why anyone who actually looks at all of this and continues to support the Empire is just beyond me.

Because the failure of one man thirty years ago is not an argument for the competency of another.

 

Mede may have made some very bad decisions, the motivations of which we can only speculate on, but throughout the game we keep finding evidence of Ulfric's failures: he weakened the Empire by creating the situation that allowed the Thalmor to force the Empire to send the Legion up to Skyrim (while the Thalmor themselves only needed to send a small observational force), he weakened Skyrim by causing a civil war that has caused the deaths of Nords (and Imperial soldiers, helping the Thalmor out even more), and he weakened his own ability to rule Skyrim by creating the Forsworn with his brutality, who will continue to sabotage Skyrim's source of wealth for as long as they live. If I had to chose between a guy who made a mistake decades ago and maybe learned from them, and a guy who is currently making mistakes and is damn proud of them, I'll go with the former (or just do the Dark Brotherhood quests, assassinate him, and hope that eager Elder Council member does a better job).

 

That being said, the comparison between the Empire's failure and Hammerfell's success is not a fair one. The former is a lush environment that can easily sustain an invading army (assuming Mede didn't employ a burn-and-salt approach to defense, but if he did that may explain the social unrest in Cyrodiil after the Great War), while the latter is a desert. It comes pre-burn-and-salted with a healthy dash of arid. Consider how poorly the Crusaders performed in the Middle East: their equipment and mounts were unsuited for the environment, their supply lines were overstretched and burdened by civilians, and their lack of knowledge of the local ecosystem allowed for disastrous campaigns. It's not unreasonable to say the Thalmor would have faced the same problems and, given their lack of experience invading deserts, likely made all the worst mistakes. Fending off an army that's been beaten down by heat, starvation, and thirst (easy to accomplish by expending minimum military effort to disrupt the supply line) is hardly proof that the Empire overestimated the Thalmor's real strength.

 

If the goal is to bring about the eventual defeat of the Thalmor, then I see no advantages in supporting Ulfric since he's no better a general than Tullius (considering the civil war stalemate and the fact that Tullius captured Ulfric in the beginning); if Ulfric can defeat the Thalmor with Skyrim's (and only Skyrim's) resources, then I believe Tullius can do just as well with Skyrim and the Empire's combined resources. However if the goal is to create an isolated Skyrim that clings to independence while allowing the rest of non-Nordic Tamriel to be crushed under the Thalmor invasion, then I suppose Ulfric's the right guy for the job.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Anime_Otaku102

[CasperTheLich]

one should also take into consideration how long it takes to rebuild a large military force from scratch in roman/darkage settings.

if memory serves after the failed invasion of akavir the empire lost almost 4 full legions, which was also one of the reasons the empire had issues during the oblivion crisis, after what 60 years or so the empire was only able to rebuild one of those legions, the 5th if i recall correctly, or was it the 10th?

 

now during the great war the empire only lost one full legion outright, however of the… was it 3 full legions that partook in the red ring engagement all suffered losses with one totally destroyed. And it’s only been 30 years.

[RighthandofSithis]

Why anyone who actually looks at all of this and continues to support the Empire is just beyond me.

Because the failure of one man thirty years ago is not an argument for the competency of another.

 

Mede may have made some very bad decisions, the motivations of which we can only speculate on, but throughout the game we keep finding evidence of Ulfric's failures: he weakened the Empire by creating the situation that allowed the Thalmor to force the Empire to send the Legion up to Skyrim (while the Thalmor themselves only needed to send a small observational force), he weakened Skyrim by causing a civil war that has caused the deaths of Nords (and Imperial soldiers, helping the Thalmor out even more), and he weakened his own ability to rule Skyrim by creating the Forsworn with his brutality, who will continue to sabotage Skyrim's source of wealth for as long as they live. If I had to chose between a guy who made a mistake decades ago and maybe learned from them, and a guy who is currently making mistakes and is damn proud of them, I'll go with the former (or just do the Dark Brotherhood quests, assassinate him, and hope that eager Elder Council member does a better job).

 

...

 

If the goal is to bring about the eventual defeat of the Thalmor, then I see no advantages in supporting Ulfric since he's no better a general than Tullius (considering the civil war stalemate and the fact that Tullius captured Ulfric in the beginning); if Ulfric can defeat the Thalmor with Skyrim's (and only Skyrim's) resources, then I believe Tullius can do just as well with Skyrim and the Empire's combined resources. However if the goal is to create an isolated Skyrim that clings to independence while allowing the rest of non-Nordic Tamriel to be crushed under the Thalmor invasion, then I suppose Ulfric's the right guy for the job.

 

For Ulfric to achieve his goals, did he have any other choice than starting a civil, class war?

 

And the Empire is far to weak to be able to confront the Thalmor. In fact, its too weak to sustain itself, with the revolutionary sentiments in Skyrim and the civil disorder in Cyrodiil, along with the financial issues it must be facing. An independent Skyrim would not not have to carry the burdens of a crumbling Empire, and could easily holds its own (as you where saying about Hammerfell).

 

 

And I'm pretty sure the Empire lost way more than two legions, nor did they use only three at red ring. The forces from Hammerfell, Skyrim and Cyrodiil would have been more than one legion each, and the Book says (I'm pretty sure) that Mede had barely any legions left at even half strength.

Edited December 5, 2012 by RighthandofSithis

[AnimeOtaku102]

For Ulfric to achieve his goals, did he have any other choice than starting a civil, class war?

Yes. The Solitude court wizard points out that Torygg respected Ulfric and his view enough that he would have declared independence if asked, and that's what a lot of them thought Ulfric was going to do when he showed up... but instead he disabled his king with a Shout, then "honorably" gutted him with his sword (Ulfric admits this, but claims it was to prove Torygg's weakness). Haafingar, Eastmarch, Falkreath (remember Dengeir was Jarl before Siddgeir and he supported Ulfric), The Pale, The Rift, and Winterhold would have immediately supported independence, leaving only Hjaalmarch, The Reach, and Whiterun Hold as potential unknowns (but would have likely joined out of loyalty to Torygg).

 

Holding both Falkreath and Riften secures the two mountain passes into Cyrodill, while Dawnstar, Solitude, and Winterhold secure all of their ports. They would have been airtight from the start, all it required was Ulfric to ask and abandon his ambition to become High King.

 

And the Empire is far to weak to be able to confront the Thalmor. In fact, its too weak to sustain itself, with the revolutionary sentiments in Skyrim and the civil disorder in Cyrodiil, along with the financial issues it must be facing. An independent Skyrim would not not have to carry the burdens of a crumbling Empire, and could easily holds its own (as you where saying about Hammerfell).

Note that the revolutionary sentiments in Skyrim were wholly the product of Ulfric. Skyrim remained a part of the Empire for thirty years without any problems and the Nords basically gave lip service to the WGC while worshipping pirivately, Ulfric was the one who called for rebellion, and he was the one who created the situation (by blackmailing the Jarl of Markarth to grant his people religious freedom, then turning around and reporting it to the Thalmor) that allowed the Thalmor to invade Skyrim under false pretenses and force the Empire to spread out its forces and embroil it in a war with its own people.

 

That aside, I don't actually know the scope and the depth of the civil unrest going on in Cyrodill. I may have missed it, but the only references I really got was when Alvor mentioned that people in Cyrodill had "their own problems to worry about" and Cicero's journals that mentioned Sanctuaries being closed and/or raided, so I can't really comment on what the strength of the Empire might be.

 

And I'm pretty sure the Empire lost way more than two legions, nor did they use only three at red ring. The forces from Hammerfell, Skyrim and Cyrodiil would have been more than one legion each, and the Book says (I'm pretty sure) that Mede had barely any legions left at even half strength.

No idea which book you're referring to, unfortunately, but in that case Ulfric had even more to gain (for Skyrim) by asking Torygg to declare independence. Mede would have been torn between guarding his borders against the Thalmor or try to reclaim Skyrim, while the Thalmor wouldn't have been able to force the Empire to enforce the WGC since Skyrim wouldn't have been subject to the treaty anymore.

 

But I suppose if Ulfric did the right thing, there wouldn't be much of a conflict. Still doesn't make him a good choice though.

 

Edit: whoops, just noticed above your comment about the Markarth Incident and Cidna Mine. That's not quite correct, because those "mercenaries" were actually Ulfric and his men and Tullius wanted the mine due to the Silverblood family's known sympathies toward Ulfric (don't recall exactly who says this, but Tullius is doing it to keep money out of Ulfric's hands rather than any funding problems within the Legion itself).

Edited December 5, 2012 by Anime_Otaku102