Which one is "good", which one is "evil"?

[sajuukkhar9000]

Not every questline can be assumed to have been done. Some things simply clash. For example: If you assume the PC (or any other character) destroyed the DB, then the DB couldn't have killed the emperor. He could've still been killed by another organization, but it'll become an entirely different lore. We'll probably have to wait until the next TES game to find out which one "really" happened.

 

Or, a more on topic example: Either the stormcloaks won, or the empire won. You cannot assume that both these things happened.

Actually, since the DB sanctuary gets destroyed either way, the Penticus Oculates destroys it during the normal DB questline, or you can destroy it as part of the "destroy the DB" quest, and since Babbette, Cicero, and the Night Mother, are not in the sanctuary if you choose to destroy it, it doesn't matter what you do, because either way, the DB survives, and will kill the emperor.

 

Either you lead Babbette, Nazir, and possibly Cicero to kill the Emperor after the destruction of the DB sanctuary, or Cicero and Babbette remake the Dark Brotherhood, recruit some more guys, and kill The emperor.

 

It is two conflicting stories, but Bethesda wrote themselves a loophole, so they don't have to tell you which one happened, just that the DB was assumed destroyed, and it turns out it wasn't.

Edited November 27, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[luzburg]

Well technically, every questline is assumed to have been done, but not necessarily by the PC. So if you didn't kill the emperor, someone else did.

 

As for what would happen after his death, a new emperor would come into power, one that doesn't have all of the hatred Titus Mede II did, and could possibly use anti-Thalmor resentment across The Empire to spur people together into a fighting force to fight the Dominion.

 

OR an ambitious fool takes over who is not as strong as Titus Mede II and leads the empire to annihilation.

[Lachdonin]

Well technically, every questline is assumed to have been done, but not necessarily by the PC. So if you didn't kill the emperor, someone else did.

 

As for what would happen after his death, a new emperor would come into power, one that doesn't have all of the hatred Titus Mede II did, and could possibly use anti-Thalmor resentment across The Empire to spur people together into a fighting force to fight the Dominion.

 

OR an ambitious fool takes over who is not as strong as Titus Mede II and leads the empire to annihilation.

 

Yes yes, strictly speaking, it's possible his successor will be worse... But thinking like that is just a downer, considering the veritable shitstorm that would result in.

[gdulal]

How can anyone write that stormcloaks and Ulfric are good people?! They are bunch of racist beliving that Nord race is a chosen race since a God Talos was a Nord and all others are beneath them its reminds me of nazi germans, all that "Skyrim for the Nords" and bullying Dark Elves refugies and also they are traitors to the Empire they are same as Thalmor but on smaller scale at least for now.

[Lachdonin]

The racism of the Nords is nothing unique. The Altmer, Dunmer, and Argonains are all extremely racist on the whole, and racist mentalities can be found amonst every major race on Tamriel. No one's quite so bad as the Sload, but the point remains, you can't condem the Nords (or more specificly Ulfric) because their racist. Most cultures in Tamriel are.

[RighthandofSithis]

It is so nice to have a thoughtful opponent, and i somewhat lament the fact your responses will be so delayed... but in the intrests of catching things before they get drowned in other points...

 

A; Social reform and an end of revolutionist notions within the Empire would not, specificly, have to take the form of a purge (though it very well could). History is replete with instances of internal strife which were ended by turning attention towards an exterior force (and blaming it for the problem). Both the Mongol and the Hun empires were born out of such a tactic, as was the third Reich. It would be a simple thing to turn the revolutionary ideas within the Imperial provinces into a firestorm against the Domminion, using the start of another war (which we already know the Empire is gearing up for) as a means to direct the woes of the populace against the Thalmor. The same situation wouldn't work so easily within a newly succeded Skyrim, however, because it would lack the instituted propiganda machine. It could certianly turn their internal war for succession into a conflict of years or months, rather than decades, but it wouldn't have the same direct effect as in an established social system like the Empire. In other words, the restructuring of a post-Empire Skyrim would mean it would lack the united government required to convince the populace of the enemy's blame.

 

B; I would say that America's tactics during the cold war (being the support of subersives elemants in communist nations, or communist-opposed dictators in 'neutral' areas) was not so much them trying to discretely exert power over their lessers, but rather an attempt to prevent the spread of the 'Communist enemy' (China and the USSR, though the two were as likely to fight eachother as the States...). Iraq, Afganistan, Cambodia, Cuba etc were less about the country in question, and more about trying to subvert the intrests of an equal power. This makes it very similar tot he Empire / Domminion situation, where the Domminion, lacking the military power to actually take the Empire on in a straight fight, is trying to bleed its resources through inciting and maintaining civil unrest. In essance, Skyrim is the Empire's Afganistan, with the Domminion playing the role of the USA.

 

C; Whether or not Hammerfell would side with a free Skyrim depends largely on how future stories play out. We know they have an abiding hatred for the Thalmor, but i think it will depend entirely on where the Domminion takes the fight next. If Skyrim succedes, thus weakening the Empire sufficiently for the Domminion to gain the upper hand, Cyrodiil would be the next target. From there, it would be a simple thing to take the still recovering Morrowind (and we can be rather certian the Nords won't come to the aid of the Dunmer) and with it have access to vast amounts of Ebony (the penultimate warfare resource on Tamriel). With control of the vast agriculture of Cyrodiil, and the mines of Morrowind, it would be difficult then to win a war of attrition against the Domminion. And, the longer the Domminion stands, with access to those resources, the stronger it would become (remember that even the original Domminion didn't have access to Morrowinds mines of Cyrodiils agriculture) to the point where an alliance between Highrock, Hammerfell and Skyrim would be irrelivent anyway.

 

Then there is also the (as yet hypothetical and unsubstantiated) possibility that the Thalmor are literally trying to unmake the world. With control of Cyrodiil, they would have a clear route into Highrock, and then the Adamantium Tower, the last active tower on Tamriel. Regardless of how you look at it, the Domminion taking Cyrodiil is bad news, and the chances of that happening climb exponentially with the loss of Skyrim.

 

I'm back baby 8)

 

So I'm away for a few days, and I miss all this!? Ahh well, best pick up where I left off.

 

I think you may be slightly dissappointed by my replies though... (partially only because I just got back, but mostly because You've maid some fair points, or we're about to discuss topics we shouldn't)

 

A. Touche, a fair response.

 

B. You're discussing this with a Marxist. Unless you wish to continue this particular debate through a PM, I think its best we simply agree to disagree.

 

C. I'm not sure if the Domminion would be able to maintain a presence on Morrowind. From what I've seen from screenshot of "Dragonborn" (the DLC), Red mountain still seems to be spewing ash, and I'd say that most of the province is still uninhabitable. And settling the Southern part of Morrowind would expose them to border raids by the Argonians (weather they control that part of Morrowind or not).

 

Also taking Cyrodiil may start to stretch their borders thin. I'm sure the population of Cyrodiil would not be happy with the Dominion taking them over, and they'd have to tie down significant forces simply to maintain order (or so I'd imagine). This would just get worse if they decided to invade Skyrim or Hammerfell, (similar to the issues facing Napoleon and Hitler in their invasions of Russia). At the same time, however, they seem to be, rather successfully, grasping the Empire under their thumb. they may be seeing the Empire as another Elsweyr, a puppet state, that will allow them to control much of TAmriel with little use of resources. Of course, this would change with any newfound resistance to the Thalmor the Empire may develop.

 

I do not care about the Whole thalmor trying to destroy the world thing. I'm more interested in more 'mundane' affairs.

 

Also, Cyrodiil does not share a direct border with High Rock. I remember someone else making that mistake a while ago.

 

The racism of the Nords is nothing unique. The Altmer, Dunmer, and Argonains are all extremely racist on the whole, and racist mentalities can be found amonst every major race on Tamriel. No one's quite so bad as the Sload, but the point remains, you can't condem the Nords (or more specificly Ulfric) because their racist. Most cultures in Tamriel are.

 

Lets not forget the game Morrowind. The Dark Elves have been pretty racist in their own right.

 

I'm not suggesting an eye for an eye, its just that the Dunmer aren't the goody two-shoes I think some people believe they are.

Edited November 27, 2012 by RighthandofSithis

[gdulal]

The racism of the Nords is nothing unique. The Altmer, Dunmer, and Argonains are all extremely racist on the whole, and racist mentalities can be found amonst every major race on Tamriel. No one's quite so bad as the Sload, but the point remains, you can't condem the Nords (or more specificly Ulfric) because their racist. Most cultures in Tamriel are.

 

Its not Nord's who are racists it just Ulfric and his Stormcloaks anyway you can not justify Stormcloak racism just because there are others racists. Since racism is a bad thing you can not call a faction of racists Stormcloak a good faction.

Edited November 27, 2012 by gdulal

[RighthandofSithis]

The racism of the Nords is nothing unique. The Altmer, Dunmer, and Argonains are all extremely racist on the whole, and racist mentalities can be found amonst every major race on Tamriel. No one's quite so bad as the Sload, but the point remains, you can't condem the Nords (or more specificly Ulfric) because their racist. Most cultures in Tamriel are.

 

Its not Nord's who are racists it just Ulfric and his Stormcloaks anyway you can not justify Stormcloak racism just because there are others racists. Since racism is a bad thing you can not call a faction of racists Stormcloak a good faction.

 

Firstly, you're trying to apply modern philosophy to a feudal society. You may as well hate the game because its an absolute monarchy.

 

Secondly, the Nords, as a race, tend to be as racist as the other races. However, such generalisations will always have exceptions, such as the Dunmer House Hlaalu, which was the only Great House to accept a Nord and an Imperial into their council.

[Lachdonin]

B. You're discussing this with a Marxist. Unless you wish to continue this particular debate through a PM, I think its best we simply agree to disagree.

 

As a social collectivist, our philosophies would not be as different as you may think. Still, i shall leave it be, as it's something which is not exactly pertinant to the ongoing conversation, and is fact something of an ongoing discussion amongst global historians. The unfortunate reality is that only those who made the decisions involved know the truth of their motivations, and those who are still breathing are rather tight lipped.

 

C. I'm not sure if the Domminion would be able to maintain a presence on Morrowind. From what I've seen from screenshot of "Dragonborn" (the DLC), Red mountain still seems to be spewing ash, and I'd say that most of the province is still uninhabitable. And settling the Southern part of Morrowind would expose them to border raids by the Argonians (weather they control that part of Morrowind or not).

 

There are various individuals throughout Skyrim who refer to Mournhold as if it is still quite healthy, even refering to a desire to head back that way. This would imply that parts of Morrowind are still habitable, regardless of whether or not Red Mountain is still doing its thing. Furthermore, control of Morrowind, for the purposes of Ebony, wouldn't require a particularly powerful presence, even less so if the majority of the province is still uninhabitable. The Empire has already shown us that it's not particularly difficult to run mining opperations in hostile and inhospitable ash-wastes.

 

Also taking Cyrodiil may start to stretch their borders thin. I'm sure the population of Cyrodiil would not be happy with the Dominion taking them over, and they'd have to tie down significant forces simply to maintain order (or so I'd imagine). This would just get worse if they decided to invade Skyrim or Hammerfell, (similar to the issues facing Napoleon and Hitler in their invasions of Russia). At the same time, however, they seem to be, rather successfully, grasping the Empire under their thumb. they may be seeing the Empire as another Elsweyr, a puppet state, that will allow them to control much of TAmriel with little use of resources. Of course, this would change with any newfound resistance to the Thalmor the Empire may develop.

 

Control of Cyrodiil wouldn't be an instantaneous thing, of course. We know that even after the Thalmor coup in Valenwood there was resistance. However, they've shown themselves to be particularly good at rooting out dissidants, so we can assume there wouldn't be a functional resistance for long. At the same time, with control of the resource rich heartland of Tamriel (which again we have been told is the source of a great deal of Skyrim's foodstuffs) the recover of any expenses in maintaining control would be simple.

 

You also have both the Synod and the College of Whispers in Cyrodiil, the former of which we know have been stockpiling magical artifacts. I think we can both agree that the Thalmor getting their hands on anything of any magical power is bad.

 

 

Also, Cyrodiil does not share a direct border with High Rock. I remember someone else making that mistake a while ago.

 

Why yes, it would indeed seem you are correct. Geography was never my strong suit, it's all i can do to remember what contenant Europe is on. Does pose another issue, however. If Skyrim succeeds from the Empire, it cuts Highrock off, and the Bretons are known for their infighting and political schisms. I doubt the Warp in the West would have totally erased the political ambitions of its many, MANY fuedal lords. They aren't really of any use to anyone without someone to keep them on a tight leash.

 

Lets not forget the game Morrowind. The Dark Elves have been pretty racist in their own right.

 

I'm not suggesting an eye for an eye, its just that the Dunmer aren't the goody two-shoes I think some people believe they are.

 

Oh lords no. The Dunmer (at least those from the era of Morrowind) make the Stormcloaks look like a regular Pride Parade. I tend to think that the sentiments are more linked to the houses than the general population, but the point remains, racism is a normal part of Tamriel's race-relations.

 

Secondly, the Nords, as a race, tend to be as racist as the other races. However, such generalisations will always have exceptions, such as the Dunmer House Hlaalu, which was the only Great House to accept a Nord and an Imperial into their council.

 

House Hlaalu, of course, being led by key members of the Comma Tong, who were quite adamant that they would murder every outlander in Morrowind. Despite their appearances, i think Hlaalu were as racist as everyone else... Except maybe Indoril, those guys were just sout.

Edited November 27, 2012 by Lachdonin

[UrgeNexus]

House Hlaalu, of course, being led by key members of the Comma Tong, who were quite adamant that they would murder every outlander in Morrowind. Despite their appearances, i think Hlaalu were as racist as everyone else... Except maybe Indoril, those guys were just sout.

It's been years since I played Morrowind and I haven't read up on it's lore in a while, there's just so much of it. My interpretation of House Hlaalu is that they don't necessarily like outlanders any more than the next house, they're just a lot better at not showing it. Hlaalu are all about diplomacy and a blatantly racist diplomat would be a really crap diplomat. In the end, fostering good relations benefits them more than treating outlanders with overt disdain.

 

EDIT: When it comes to Ulfric and the Stormcloaks, yeah, many of them seem to be racists. Given the situation Skyrim is currently in though, that's understandable. I don't condone it and it's one of the primary reasons I don't support the Stormcloaks but I do understand it. It's also important to note that the Stormcloaks aren't all bad, some are genuine patriots who are willing to fight for what they believe is best for their homeland. ButI digress, back to racism. There's a few factors at play, the Great War is one, the Red Year another.

 

During the Great War, huge numbers of Nords were killed. Nords are widely regarded as some of the best warriors in the world and it comes as no surprise that the Empire used Nord troops extensively during the war. Nord culture also puts a very large focus on personal honour, courage and defiance in the face of defeat. Victory or Sovngarde. It comes as no surprise that the White Gold Concordat was seen as an outrage in Skyrim, not only because it banned the worship of their most revered god, but because it goes against everything the Nord people generally stand for. Vignar Gray-Mane sums it up nicely "When the Empire surrendered to the Aldmeri Dominion, they shamed us all".

 

Then there's the Red Year. The previous Jarl of Windhelm, Ulfric's father if I recall correctly did invite the Dunmer refugees to Skyrim and basically gave them Solstheim. That's all well and good, but in the current political climate in Skyrim and Tamriel as a whole, a lot of people are looking for someone to blame their problems on. The Dunmer in Windhelm for example are a legitimate drain on the city's resources, especially during war-time. Of course, they still would be had they all been Nords instead, but a scared, angry peasant who may have lost family or friends in the Great War or Civil War won't think like that. They'll want to blame someone, Dunmer are elves so they're basically the same as the Altmer right? Let's blame them.

 

In short (Too late) the racist views present in Skyrim are understandable, terrible, but understandable. There's also the fact that racism is prevalent in all Tamrielic cultures. Personally I think it stems from the fact that the various races are so different. For example, Altmer and Dunmer are basically polar opposites of each other, two sides of the same racist coin.

Edited November 27, 2012 by UrgeNexus