evilbeefjerky Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 Something like the Guardians of the Old Order in Wasteland. Or a division of power armor troops that was deployed to DC to quell food riots. The National Guard gets mentioned many times throughout the game. Just replace their decals with the unused U.S. Army ones, flush the "rawr! Brotherhood!" references and there you go. A modder could do it. :P till have a pretty black and white perception of things, if you think the leader of something completely defines the entire thing. In any case, he isn't the leader of the whole Enclave. He was the de facto leader of the remaining Enclave forces that relocated to the east coast. The Enclave was around even before the war. Eden was still the one in actual command until it tried to get the FEV into the water, which in turn caused Autumn to rebel. Autumn is still a heartless male without a father, and will kill without remorse to accomplish his long term goals. I don't care how good the ends are, it does not always justify the means. In the end, shouldn't that be for the player to decide?Maybe the ends *do* justify the means. Maybe the Brotherhood are just too ineffective to really get the job done.But that fundamental choice is not there. You either follow the Brotherhood and their giant stompy robot or nothing.Oh yeah, you can choose to go with Hitler-9000's plan. But that's even worse. Super evil genocide or super good. Where's the grey area? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikekearn Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 The thing is, Autumn's goal after rebelling is to get Project Purity up and running, so he can give water to the wastelanders. Or at least, that's all I am able to infer. If that is his goal, why the hell does he come in and try to take over the whole thing himself? If he really is such a good guy, he should have left well enough alone, or at least offered to help protect all the scientists working to make the project a reality. Instead, he breaks in, kills people, and gives them every reason to distrust him and not want to help him. If nothing else, that makes him a stupid and inefficient good guy, and still worse off than we were before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilbeefjerky Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 The thing is, Autumn's goal after rebelling is to get Project Purity up and running, so he can give water to the wastelanders. Or at least, that's all I am able to infer. If that is his goal, why the hell does he come in and try to take over the whole thing himself? If he really is such a good guy, he should have left well enough alone, or at least offered to help protect all the scientists working to make the project a reality. Instead, he breaks in, kills people, and gives them every reason to distrust him and not want to help him. If nothing else, that makes him a stupid and inefficient good guy, and still worse off than we were before. Like I said, he's badly written. He shoots Janice to say "Rar! Me evil!" and to give Dad a horribly flimsy excuse to sacrifice himself.The way I would've written it is to have Autumn and the Brotherhood at odds over the Purifier with Dad and you caught in the middle. The BoS has it, Autumn wants it.Autumn wants to rebuild the government. The BoS wants to establish themselves as the local power much like the Mid-West Brotherhood did in Chicago.Tensions are high, somebody starts shooting. Dad and some of the scientists get caught in the crossfire. You and the others flee to somewhere neutral (perhaps the Outcasts) and things escalate from there with you choosing to throw in with the BoS, Autumn, Eden or maybe just yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikekearn Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 The way I would've written it is to have Autumn and the Brotherhood at odds over the Purifier with Dad and you caught in the middle. The BoS has it, Autumn wants it.Autumn wants to rebuild the government. The BoS wants to establish themselves as the local power much like the Mid-West Brotherhood did in Chicago.Tensions are high, somebody starts shooting. Dad and some of the scientists get caught in the crossfire. You and the others flee to somewhere neutral (perhaps the Outcasts) and things escalate from there with you choosing to throw in with the BoS, Autumn, Eden or maybe just yourself.That actually is pretty interesting, but hindsight is always 20-20. Bethesda obviously had an idea where they wanted to go with everything, and wrote the story accordingly, but it conflicts with the idea of choice. It is hard to have as big a game as this, and have every choice be meaningful, and still have amazingly detailed characters. I'm not saying it can't be done, just that it would be difficult. And of course the more money or time spent on any one thing during development detracts from anything else. Damn finite resources, and all that. Also, "Rar! Me evil!" made me laugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tagaziel Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 Seems you still have a pretty black and white perception of things, if you think the leader of something completely defines the entire thing. In any case, he isn't the leader of the whole Enclave. He was the de facto leader of the remaining Enclave forces that relocated to the east coast. The Enclave was around even before the war. Eden was still the one in actual command until it tried to get the FEV into the water, which in turn caused Autumn to rebel. Autumn is still a heartless male without a father, and will kill without remorse to accomplish his long term goals. I don't care how good the ends are, it does not always justify the means. Ends *do* justify the means in a post-nuclear world. The Enclave under Autumn would leverage the purifier (as stupid as a plot device it is) to make wastelanders flock to their banner and then rebuild the United States proper. Sure, ghouls and supermutants might be exterminated or herded into reservations, but it's a small price to pay for the reestabilishment of government and safety for US inhabitants. And if you paid attention, Autumn was the one really in charge, and followed Eden's orders as long as they were close to his own goals. Just listen again to the tape from his living quarters in Raven Rock. Lastly, it's about philosophy: would you support a bunch of do gooders without a clear idea how to fix the wastes and lacking the capability or the seemingly evil guys who actually have a chance to restore the USA to it's former glory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikekearn Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 The do-gooders. Easily. I don't give a rat's ass about everyone else's affairs. I think it's wrong to kill them, but I'm not going to put a sociopath into power even if he has ideas on how to better the lives of everyone. What happens if, further down the road, my ideas and his begin to differ? If I've gone out of my way to put him in power, it won't matter to him. I'll just be an obstacle to be removed. That is a great way to run a dictatorship, but not what I would choose for my own government. It seems we will have to disagree on this matter, though. I don't find the ends justifying the means, and you clearly do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noobax Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 I completely agree with mikekearn by just trying to capture project purity is like telling the whole of america in a vertibird that "rar! Me evil" like that guy said. and furthermore, he didnt just capture it he started killing off scientists! Man! Since when do good guys shoot helpless , threatless , weaponless , defenseless people huh? Its not that he was badly written. Its more of badly written all over him was "rar! Me Evil! I am a evil male without a father with a machine gun laser pistol please kill me next time you see me!" Or rather he was written VERY well....in the evil way. Oh and......dont anyone forget...when they capture you and you tell them the code....would they let you go? NO they jsut shoot you and the game ends. Do you think good people would do that? now tell me you can argue with the shooting you for giving them the code part! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilbeefjerky Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 That's the thing, Autumn isn't written to be evil. He's written to be Eden's foil. But he fails miserably at that.He's too humane to endorse Eden's plan for genocide, but will shoot scientists and restrained prisoners in cold blood - even when it'd be to his advantage to ally with you!He also rebels against the President but... doesn't. Let's look at the facts here: - He directly opposes the President's plans.- He wilfully disobeys a direct order from the President.- The President in response has his robot guards open fire on Enclave troops loyal to Autumn- Enclave troops abandon Raven Rock in direct rebellion to the President- Autumn's personal diary says he has reservations about Eden and keeps the secret ZAX destruct code just in case. So how in the hell does a man who doesn't follow the President's orders, uses his troops agsint him and secretly plans to kill him if things get out of hand claim to still be following the chain of command? And you have to convince him not to?That's not bad writing, that's completely insane writing. It's like they had a bunch of writers for this who never communicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noobax Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 :biggrin: Why dont we just all send a message to bethesda softworks to ask? :biggrin: If we can. And erm I dont understand the last post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumbler Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 I got another explanation... It is not Autumn who is in that chamber at that time.Reminds me of the old joke: "You know that historians have established that it wasn't Homer that wrote the Iliad?" "Really? Who was it, then?" "Turns out to be some obscure dude with the same name." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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