Colonel Autumn?!

[noobax]

The Enclave, while fascist, is the best chance at rebuilding the wasteland. Given the choice between a fascist government now and no government at all for years, I'd choose the former. In a post-nuclear scenario, of course.

 

That is not true. ANYONE who controls the water purifier and uses it for everyone is the best chance of reviving the wasteland.And I completely disagree with the choice of having a government. Would you like a corrupted government who could kill you anytime because you refuse to pay erm... well.....lets say supplies to rebuild the wasteland or would you prefer keeping them to yourselves and being able to go anywhere without harm?

 

And... do you notice the post has changed from autumn surviving high rads to autumn's coat to enclave is good or bad?

 

As opposed to the Brotherhood who shoot ghouls on sight for no reason and refused to protect the Purifier until *somebody else wanted it*?

Yeah, a lot better.

 

I don't get the whole "control the purifier, control the capital" anyway. The purifier works all at once or not at all. That is - it cleanses the entire basin all at once.

Therefore whoever controls the thing can only hold the wasteland to ransom for as long as they *don't* use it. Once they do, what are they going to do? Put up a fence around every lake, river and sink in the wasteland with a sign saying "kindly do not steal this clean water"?

 

 

The brotherhood doesnt shoot ghouls on sight AND they didnt refuse to protect the purifier. They didnt KNOW there was one. Or even if I missed out something, and the brotherhood really did refuse to protect it, maybe it was because they thought the purifier was under no threat! And they dont need to put fences around them they just need to deploy troops, right?

 

 

And if you REALLY REALLY REALLY support the enclave, why not just tell autumn the passcode? Why not let autumn kill you at the ending? Why not kill YOUR FATHER? and...why not kill threedog, kill all brotherhooders you see, why not kill the whole brotherhood base, why not kil elderlyons, why not just frigging kill doctor Li why not just die?????

[evilbeefjerky]

The brotherhood doesnt shoot ghouls on sight AND they didnt refuse to protect the purifier. They didnt KNOW there was one. Or even if I missed out something, and the brotherhood really did refuse to protect it, maybe it was because they thought the purifier was under no threat! And they dont need to put fences around them they just need to deploy troops, right?

 

What game were you playing? The ghouls at Underworld continually refer to how the BoS shoot them on sight.

And the BoS abandoned the Purifier for 20 years, even though it's within spitting distance of the Citadel.

 

 

And if you REALLY REALLY REALLY support the enclave, why not just tell autumn the passcode? Why not let autumn kill you at the ending? Why not kill YOUR FATHER? and...why not kill threedog, kill all brotherhooders you see, why not kill the whole brotherhood base, why not kil elderlyons, why not just frigging kill doctor Li why not just die?????

 

Aside from the fact that half of the characters you mention can't die, what you're saying is like me saying deliberately jumping into a pit in Super Mario is a game feature for supporting Bowser.

[Tagaziel]

The fallacy of the false choice. The real choice is between a fascist government with a better chance of establishing a government earlier, or an NCR-type government whose chances are not so good as early.

 

That choice would be easy for me to make. The nuclear damage has already occurred. The damage a fascist regime would inflict would go on longer, IMO, than the damage anarchy would inflict. The seeds of order have already started to be established in the DC wasteland. Pockets of civilization have started to spring up, and they are in communication with one another.

 

There is no guarantee that a stable non-fascist government will come of this, but there is no guarantee that the Enclave would succeed, either.

 

Uh, what? NCR was estabilished shortly after 2162. By 2277 it's a 115 year old political entity. Comparing Washington DC in 2277 to that... well, it seems the people there are unable to form any semblance of government.

 

And what's wrong with a fascist regime in a post-nuclear scenario? Is a strong government worse than anarchy in which anyone can kill you at a whim and suffer no consequences? Do note that I'm referring to Italian style fascism, not nazism, because while similiar, they are different ideologies.

 

Colonel Autumn turning against Eden doesn't make him good or even gray, and the argument that anything opposing the "good guy" argument is simply "bad writing" is totally unpersuasive. We have the evidence that we have. A wonder-drug that works instantly against radiation is perfectly logical in the world of SCIENCE!

 

Because it is bad writing. Bethesda's writers suck rancid donkey balls, and the Enclave is proof of that. Especially the godawful "confrontation" with Eden.

[Falsify]

MikaelGrizzly, glad I'm not the only one who sees Bethesda's flaws.

[grumbler]

You miss the fact that Autumn FORGETS he's rebelled against Eden at the purifier.

Now either the radiation addled his brain or it's bad writing.

I don't see anywhere where he says that he never rebelled against Eden. He does say (in one path of the final dialogue tree) something about respecting the chain of command, but that could simply mean that his "rebellion" against Eden's orders is simply a case of refusing to obey orders he thinks are misguided. This happens plenty of times in fiction, and sometimes in real life.

 

Now, the fact that you can talk about loyalty to a machine that no longer exists is either an oversight that should have been precluded by conditions in the dialogue choices, or is based on an assumption that Autumn doesn't know Eden is destroyed. That is a plot hole either way, but a pretty minor one (especially as it isn't likely you can follow that tree anyway).

 

Furthermore, he suffers from selective mercy. He'll kill you for cooperating but spares Anna Holt? Why? surely the son/daughter of THE GUY WHO CREATED the damn thing would be more of use than some throaway scientists picked up at Rivet City.

Moreover shooting you is against his best interests, he has NO reason for shooting you, NO reason for even being against you. Even if he's an evil SOB with an agenda, *he does it really badly*

By the time the PC would be of use to Autumn because of his/her relationship to Dad, Dad is dead. Autumn is against you because Dad was against him, whereas Holt was for him and had experience with the actual SCIENCE! involved. Autumn has plenty of reasons for shooting the PC (avoiding your attempts at revenge, for instance) and none for sparing him/her. If you think that this is bad writing, fine. But arguments that it is bad writing merely because you say so are unpersuasive.

 

I mean, he could *try* to convince a moral character to see things the Enclave's way with a "greater good" speech or try not to do his damn best to drive an evil character right into the arms of President Eden. But that's the thing, at no point do I get the sense that Autumn is thinking at all, he's a cardboard cutout character going through the motions regardless of the harm he's doing to himself.

Sure, in a game with an infinite amount of time and resources devoted to it, you could extend the dialogue with a bunch of dialogue options which couldn't go anywhere because the game's end would be wrecked by your simple cooperation with the Enclave, but I think that this is a pretty minor complaint. There are many other places where those theoretical infinite resources could have been applied to more effect. All of the characters in the game are "cardboard cutout characters" because they are just characters in a game. Autumn seems no more out of place here than any of the other characters in this game or any Fallout game.

[Tagaziel]

You haven't played previous Fallout games it seems... or just tend to avoid facts, so that you can twist them to your own liking.

 

Compare the Lieutenant from Fo1 with Autumn. If you still think they are on the same level of quality, don't bother responding.

[grumbler]

Uh, what? NCR was estabilished shortly after 2162. By 2277 it's a 115 year old political entity. Comparing Washington DC in 2277 to that... well, it seems the people there are unable to form any semblance of government.

Dunno what the age of the NCR has to do with NCR-style governments. The NCR was established as a cooperative republic with representation from various surviving/newly established towns. No reason why such a thing could not exist in the DC wastelands, though it would take time.

 

And what's wrong with a fascist regime in a post-nuclear scenario? Is a strong government worse than anarchy in which anyone can kill you at a whim and suffer no consequences? Do note that I'm referring to Italian style fascism, not nazism, because while similiar, they are different ideologies.

Fascism is completely inappropriate in a non-industrial society. The purpose of fascism was to heal class conflicts through the subordination of all activities to the needs of the state. It was totalitarian and expansionist. With the lack of class, the lack of communication, and the lack of the industry and population to support expansionism, fascism solves no problems in the DC Wasteland but still exerts its costs. Feudalism would be a much more appropriate social/political model than Fascism, if republicanism is deemed impossible to achieve.

 

Because it is bad writing. Bethesda's writers suck rancid donkey balls, and the Enclave is proof of that. Especially the godawful "confrontation" with Eden.

Argument by assertion is no more persuasive when repeated than it was when first stated.

[evilbeefjerky]

You miss the fact that Autumn FORGETS he's rebelled against Eden at the purifier.

Now either the radiation addled his brain or it's bad writing.

I don't see anywhere where he says that he never rebelled against Eden. He does say (in one path of the final dialogue tree) something about respecting the chain of command, but that could simply mean that his "rebellion" against Eden's orders is simply a case of refusing to obey orders he thinks are misguided. This happens plenty of times in fiction, and sometimes in real life.

 

Now, the fact that you can talk about loyalty to a machine that no longer exists is either an oversight that should have been precluded by conditions in the dialogue choices, or is based on an assumption that Autumn doesn't know Eden is destroyed. That is a plot hole either way, but a pretty minor one (especially as it isn't likely you can follow that tree anyway).

 

In the convo with Autumn you can convince him to no longer be loyal to Eden, at which point he LEAVES. Even though he was trying to activate the Purifier according to his own plan and NOT Eden's.

And no, Autumn doesn't just refuse to obey orders. He actively countermanded the President's direct orders to keep you alive, sent his own men against the President's guards and then fled from Raven Rock taking most of the Enclave troops with him.

By any account, Autumn commited treason. He broke the chain of command long before you talk to him at the Purifier.

 

By the time the PC would be of use to Autumn because of his/her relationship to Dad, Dad is dead. Autumn is against you because Dad was against him, whereas Holt was for him and had experience with the actual SCIENCE! involved. Autumn has plenty of reasons for shooting the PC (avoiding your attempts at revenge, for instance) and none for sparing him/her. If you think that this is bad writing, fine. But arguments that it is bad writing merely because you say so are unpersuasive.

 

Holt was a two-bit scientist at Rivet. She had about as much experience with the Purifier as you have.

And you're telling me that a high INT/Science child of the man who built it wouldn't be a valuable asset? Sorry, there's no logical reason for Autumn to shoot you at that point, just as there was no reason for Autumn to shoot Janice. He's written as a complete imbecile who continually shoots himself in the foot.

 

Sure, in a game with an infinite amount of time and resources devoted to it, you could extend the dialogue with a bunch of dialogue options which couldn't go anywhere because the game's end would be wrecked by your simple cooperation with the Enclave, but I think that this is a pretty minor complaint. There are many other places where those theoretical infinite resources could have been applied to more effect. All of the characters in the game are "cardboard cutout characters" because they are just characters in a game. Autumn seems no more out of place here than any of the other characters in this game or any Fallout game.

 

Nonsense! Are you seriously comparing Autumn to The Master or the Lieutenant? Hell, even Frank Horrigan is better written than Autumn.

[grumbler]

You haven't played previous Fallout games it seems... or just tend to avoid facts, so that you can twist them to your own liking.

When my debate opponents resort to personal attacks, i take that as a sign that they are frustrated because they realize they have no logical arguments left. Thanks for the concession.

 

Compare the Lieutenant from Fo1 with Autumn. If you still think they are on the same level of quality, don't bother responding.

I won't bother responding because I have no idea what "on the same level of quality" means in this context. I do not decline to respond to your point because you directed me not to. :biggrin:

 

If you cannot write posts that are neither personal attacks nor meaningless directives, then we really don't have any reason to continue the discussion, do we? I enjoy the intellectual side of debates here, but when the discussion starts becoming about whether my statements are based on not playing some game or based on a desire to avoid (unstated) facts so I "can twist them to [my] own liking" (avoiding them and twisting them at the same time makes me dizzy), it isn't intellectual anymore.

[grumbler]

In the convo with Autumn you can convince him to no longer be loyal to Eden, at which point he LEAVES. Even though he was trying to activate the Purifier according to his own plan and NOT Eden's.

And no, Autumn doesn't just refuse to obey orders. He actively countermanded the President's direct orders to keep you alive, sent his own men against the President's guards and then fled from Raven Rock taking most of the Enclave troops with him.

By any account, Autumn commited treason. He broke the chain of command long before you talk to him at the Purifier.

Yes, he disobeyed orders, but because of a specific disagreement with Eden about tactics (ie whether or not to kill off the "impure" types indiscriminately). We don't know what his long-term plans were, nor whether he felt his break with Eden was permanent. You are assuming that this is illogical because it suits your purposes, not because it is, in fact, demonstrably illogical (aka "bad writing). Treason is to side with the enemies of one's own side. Autumn does not do this.

 

 

Holt was a two-bit scientist at Rivet. She had about as much experience with the Purifier as you have.

Source?

 

And you're telling me that a high INT/Science child of the man who built it wouldn't be a valuable asset? Sorry, there's no logical reason for Autumn to shoot you at that point, just as there was no reason for Autumn to shoot Janice. He's written as a complete imbecile who continually shoots himself in the foot.

The PC doesn't have high science (except maybe when you play him/her). Autumn shoots you when he gets the code because he fears that "you" will try to get revenge for his responsibility in the death of "your" father. Lame writing would involve "you" ignoring that and working with him. The repeated assertion that Colonel Autumn is a badly written "complete imbecile," despite evidence to the contrary, remains unpersuasive. Trying to combine assertions into arguments does not make the assertions true.

 

Nonsense! Are you seriously comparing Autumn to The Master or the Lieutenant? Hell, even Frank Horrigan is better written than Autumn.

I didn't compare Autumn to any specific characters. He adequately fulfills his role, as does The Master, Lou, Horrigan, etc. his dialogue is not as complex as, say, The Lieutenant, because it doesn't need to be to fulfill his role.

 

There is a limit to how much dialogue and exposition can be built into any game. Fallout 3 doesn't need as much as, say, Fallout 2 because it isn't the same type of game. That isn't to say that Fallout 3 is perfect, or that it meets my own expectations for a "hybrid Fallout 2 and Oblivion," but I am realistic about how far any company can afford to go in building a game, and I think assertions of malice or incompetence because some given expectations are not met is illogical.