Why you should KILL Synth Shaun.

[AeonsLegend]

There's a lot of information on Synths that we're not aware of. For instance the Shaun synth may or may not mature. And he didn't really seem bothered by the fact that he was turned off. I'm also not sure what happens when you turn them off. Do they just hybernate? Do they continue breathing? Living tissue cannot function without normal bodyparts to supply them. If Synths have a heart then that must keep beating otherwise the organic parts of the body will start decaying. Is it just the active part of the mind? The brain organizes conscious and subconscious functions. Like breathing and the heart are controlled by the brain. If you "shut it off" then that also stops and the body starts decaying. So which part of the brain is shut off for this to work? It at least inhibits motion and awareness when they shut down. But they don't fall over! So standing is still possible. I feel that Bethesda choose to treat them too much like a robot in this case. Standing up is not a function that can be controlled specifically if the brain is not functioning in a non aware state. Like sleeping. A person falling asleep would also fall over. Unless they are sleep walking, but that's a completely different condition. Sleep walking people are aware of their surroundings and can interact with them. If a Synth shuts down that's not what you want.

 

But with regards to Shaun we're making a lot of assumptions. Like he does not age. His mental state does not change. Can he take care of himself? If we consider him "alive" then turning him off would violate his rights. I don't know if you saw the "Umbrella Academy" on Netflix. In this show one of the main characters uses her powers to control her baby girl which, when discovered by her spouse, was taken out of her care. Using any means of control that superceedes what we consider normal human control is deemed unacceptable. This would apply to Shaun as well. So turning him off would also be bad. If it is considered killing him then no I don't think so. If we can percieve him as The Doctor on Start Trek Voyager. Then no. The doctor is self aware and eventually considered alive even though he is a hologram. This is an interesting debate to be sure. He also gains the means to turn himself off and it is no longer allowed for crew members to turn him off.

Edited February 12, 2020 by AeonsLegend

[StormWolf01]

This is where we go off on the tangent of 'what represents 'life''.... and quite frankly, modern day philosophers are even now debating this, and they are no closer to a definition than the dems are of defining an 'assault rifle'. :smile: So, the question becomes, What represents 'being alive'? For my part, I would have no idea how to define that. Synths ARE living tissue, yes, they are self-aware (maybe....), they may, or may not, be able to naturally reproduce. (I just don't know on that one.) Does that make them "alive"???? They are still constructs, made by man. Is man capable of creating "life"???? I don't have an answer for that one either.....

 

Now, lets consider synths... Coursers in particular. They are faster, stronger, more resilient, than a 'natural' human. Should we even consider permitting them to breed? (assuming its even possible for them to do so...) How long do you think the human race would last, if synths could reproduce without benefit of the institute labs? My guess would be: Not long at all. I think what we see in Battlestar Galactica is a pretty accurate rendition of the end result...... and we don't have the benefit of FTL travel to find someplace else to hide. I.E. Synths would simply wipe us out, and that would be the end of it.

 

Now, in Shauns specific case..... He is always going to be a ten year old boy. Everyone in the world is always going to see him as a ten year old boy. He may live another thousand years, barring unforeseen circumstances, and the river don't rise..... Will he be able to care for himself? Will his mind mature as he ages? Or will he always need a caretaker? I suppose, it would be a simple matter to just turn him off, and call it a day. Would that be the same as killing him? After all, it IS possible to turn him back on..... So, is he really "dead"??

I've seen a couple of videos about the scene where we can chose to leave him there, and not take us with him.

he makes a couple of good arguments, then...just gives up with saying "I hate you."

To me, that's programmed response. He doesn't make another peep or make any further attempt to keep you from leaving him.

Heck, the people around us fight harder to take him with us, than he does.

Might be just poor writing, or poor implementation. But the way it looks...he's not really as concerned about his survival as a person would be.

 

That's an interesting notion tho. If he doesn't mature, and only remains to what he's been programmed, who wants to take care of a ten year old kid for the rest of their life? Especially in the wasteland.

Edited February 12, 2020 by StormWolf01

[jjb54]

There's a lot of information on Synths that we're not aware of. For instance the Shaun synth may or may not mature. And he didn't really seem bothered by the fact that he was turned off. I'm also not sure what happens when you turn them off. Do they just hybernate? Do they continue breathing? Living tissue cannot function without normal bodyparts to supply them. If Synths have a heart then that must keep beating otherwise the organic parts of the body will start decaying. Is it just the active part of the mind? The brain organizes conscious and subconscious functions. Like breathing and the heart are controlled by the brain. If you "shut it off" then that also stops and the body starts decaying. So which part of the brain is shut off for this to work? It at least inhibits motion and awareness when they shut down. But they don't fall over! So standing is still possible. I feel that Bethesda choose to treat them too much like a robot in this case. Standing up is not a function that can be controlled specifically if the brain is not functioning in a non aware state. Like sleeping. A person falling asleep would also fall over. Unless they are sleep walking, but that's a completely different condition. Sleep walking people are aware of their surroundings and can interact with them. If a Synth shuts down that's not what you want.

 

But with regards to Shaun we're making a lot of assumptions. Like he does not age. His mental state does not change. Can he take care of himself? If we consider him "alive" then turning him off would violate his rights. I don't know if you saw the "Umbrella Academy" on Netflix. In this show one of the main characters uses her powers to control her baby girl which, when discovered by her spouse, was taken out of her care. Using any means of control that superceedes what we consider normal human control is deemed unacceptable. This would apply to Shaun as well. So turning him off would also be bad. If it is considered killing him then no I don't think so. If we can percieve him as The Doctor on Start Trek Voyager. Then no. The doctor is self aware and eventually considered alive even though he is a hologram. This is an interesting debate to be sure. He also gains the means to turn himself off and it is no longer allowed for crew members to turn him off.

 

.. Synth Shaun not aging is not an assumption. It's in the game and is clearly stated that he does NOT age. Again, this NOT an assumption.

[jjb54]

 

This is where we go off on the tangent of 'what represents 'life''.... and quite frankly, modern day philosophers are even now debating this, and they are no closer to a definition than the dems are of defining an 'assault rifle'. :smile: So, the question becomes, What represents 'being alive'? For my part, I would have no idea how to define that. Synths ARE living tissue, yes, they are self-aware (maybe....), they may, or may not, be able to naturally reproduce. (I just don't know on that one.) Does that make them "alive"???? They are still constructs, made by man. Is man capable of creating "life"???? I don't have an answer for that one either.....

 

Now, lets consider synths... Coursers in particular. They are faster, stronger, more resilient, than a 'natural' human. Should we even consider permitting them to breed? (assuming its even possible for them to do so...) How long do you think the human race would last, if synths could reproduce without benefit of the institute labs? My guess would be: Not long at all. I think what we see in Battlestar Galactica is a pretty accurate rendition of the end result...... and we don't have the benefit of FTL travel to find someplace else to hide. I.E. Synths would simply wipe us out, and that would be the end of it.

 

Now, in Shauns specific case..... He is always going to be a ten year old boy. Everyone in the world is always going to see him as a ten year old boy. He may live another thousand years, barring unforeseen circumstances, and the river don't rise..... Will he be able to care for himself? Will his mind mature as he ages? Or will he always need a caretaker? I suppose, it would be a simple matter to just turn him off, and call it a day. Would that be the same as killing him? After all, it IS possible to turn him back on..... So, is he really "dead"??

I've seen a couple of videos about the scene where we can chose to leave him there, and not take us with him.

he makes a couple of good arguments, then...just gives up with saying "I hate you."

To me, that's programmed response. He doesn't make another peep or make any further attempt to keep you from leaving him.

Heck, the people around us fight harder to take him with us, than he does.

Might be just poor writing, or poor implementation. But the way it looks...he's not really as concerned about his survival as a person would be.

 

That's an interesting notion tho. If he doesn't mature, and only remains to what he's been programmed, who wants to take care of a ten year old kid for the rest of their life? Especially in the wasteland.

 

 

That's what I noticed too. There is a " program " issue, if you will that " Father " did not account for. The " emotions " of being left behind. I thought it strange that Synth Shaun did not show ' fear ' - ' worry ' or such at being left behind.

[jjb54]

Heyas Aeons. Hm. Well, all I really know about the BoS prior to 4 is what I've seen in a few videos on youtube. So I'm definitly willing to take what you're saying. :wink: (that's genuine, not saracasm).

 

This, I'm also being genuine about.... so don't take it wrong. The whole thing about man creating artificial life is kinda starting to get into the religious aspect of it for me, along with the scientific, so that part of it I'm gonna bow out of. Cuz yeah...it's really not a good idea to debate religious beliefs on a forums :wink:

That's trying to be respectful, cuz I don't wanna get too overworked about it with you as a chum here on the boards :smile:

 

Computertech- I say this as a joke. But, in the 2nd BSG they had ways to shut down the clones. A bullet to the head *laughs*

It's just that darn memory transfer that was a pain in the tail! :D

 

I mean, I do see where you're coming from.

Tho, the Institute IS kinda using the G3's the same way that the Cylons did. Infiltrators. Saboteurs. Spies. Or to just outright replace leaders in high positions. Big spoiler warning!

Mayor McDoughboy as a prime example. Ok, so I can't remember how to spell his last name, ok?

They also used the threat of them, in a seriously strategic manner. Again, big spoiler alert!

Convincing the brotherhood (AND Danse) that Danse is a synth.

 

JJ - if we're too far off topic with this, just say so. We have a bad habit of doing that, here on the Nexus.

 

No ... I think these dialogs and posts are great. This is the reason for the thread - to cause thought and dialog .... ENJOY! :D

[StormWolf01]

*snip*

I've seen a couple of videos about the scene where we can chose to leave him there, and not take us with him.

he makes a couple of good arguments, then...just gives up with saying "I hate you."

To me, that's programmed response. He doesn't make another peep or make any further attempt to keep you from leaving him.

Heck, the people around us fight harder to take him with us, than he does.

Might be just poor writing, or poor implementation. But the way it looks...he's not really as concerned about his survival as a person would be.

 

That's an interesting notion tho. If he doesn't mature, and only remains to what he's been programmed, who wants to take care of a ten year old kid for the rest of their life? Especially in the wasteland.

 

 

That's what I noticed too. There is a " program " issue, if you will that " Father " did not account for. The " emotions " of being left behind. I thought it strange that Synth Shaun did not show ' fear ' - ' worry ' or such at being left behind.

 

Right??

He just ended it, with that. Nothing else. He didn't try to run away, he didn't go running screaming and crying, he didn't show any kind of further response. Which brings up the question of , well.... if he knows "hate" how come he doesn't know fear? I'm thinking that he did, in alternate choice lines, where Father "shows him off to you" and the Fake Shaun doesn't know who you are.

Which to me, means that he was reprogrammed since then.

A computer in a living body.

 

Ok, glad of that. Yeah, I was starting to worry about if we were getting too far off track, since you hadn't posted anything back, and was worried that you were mad at us.

[jjb54]

*snip*

I've seen a couple of videos about the scene where we can chose to leave him there, and not take us with him.

he makes a couple of good arguments, then...just gives up with saying "I hate you."

To me, that's programmed response. He doesn't make another peep or make any further attempt to keep you from leaving him.

Heck, the people around us fight harder to take him with us, than he does.

Might be just poor writing, or poor implementation. But the way it looks...he's not really as concerned about his survival as a person would be.

 

That's an interesting notion tho. If he doesn't mature, and only remains to what he's been programmed, who wants to take care of a ten year old kid for the rest of their life? Especially in the wasteland.

 

 

That's what I noticed too. There is a " program " issue, if you will that " Father " did not account for. The " emotions " of being left behind. I thought it strange that Synth Shaun did not show ' fear ' - ' worry ' or such at being left behind.

 

Right??

He just ended it, with that. Nothing else. He didn't try to run away, he didn't go running screaming and crying, he didn't show any kind of further response. Which brings up the question of , well.... if he knows "hate" how come he doesn't know fear? I'm thinking that he did, in alternate choice lines, where Father "shows him off to you" and the Fake Shaun doesn't know who you are.

Which to me, means that he was reprogrammed since then.

A computer in a living body.

 

Ok, glad of that. Yeah, I was starting to worry about if we were getting too far off track, since you hadn't posted anything back, and was worried that you were mad at us.

 

Here is the thing - Remember the synth that is being held at gunpoint by the couple ( husband ) wants to kill him. You talk them out of it, because if the Synth was going to kill, wouldn't he have done it by now?

 

Remember how that Synth was fearful?

 

Remember the 2 Art characters. One is a synth and one is not. Both showed equal emotions about dying.

 

Synth Shaun showed NO emotions whatsoever ....

[jjb54]

ADDED - I just went into my FO 4 and first thing Codsworth starts to dialog w/me.

 

Even Codsworth has more emotions than Synth Shaun!

[AeonsLegend]

 

.. Synth Shaun not aging is not an assumption. It's in the game and is clearly stated that he does NOT age. Again, this NOT an assumption.

You're missinterpreting. I'm not talking about the body. I'm talking about the mind. The only thing of importance.

[AeonsLegend]

 

*snip*

I've seen a couple of videos about the scene where we can chose to leave him there, and not take us with him.

he makes a couple of good arguments, then...just gives up with saying "I hate you."

To me, that's programmed response. He doesn't make another peep or make any further attempt to keep you from leaving him.

Heck, the people around us fight harder to take him with us, than he does.

Might be just poor writing, or poor implementation. But the way it looks...he's not really as concerned about his survival as a person would be.

 

That's an interesting notion tho. If he doesn't mature, and only remains to what he's been programmed, who wants to take care of a ten year old kid for the rest of their life? Especially in the wasteland.

 

 

That's what I noticed too. There is a " program " issue, if you will that " Father " did not account for. The " emotions " of being left behind. I thought it strange that Synth Shaun did not show ' fear ' - ' worry ' or such at being left behind.

 

Right??

He just ended it, with that. Nothing else. He didn't try to run away, he didn't go running screaming and crying, he didn't show any kind of further response. Which brings up the question of , well.... if he knows "hate" how come he doesn't know fear? I'm thinking that he did, in alternate choice lines, where Father "shows him off to you" and the Fake Shaun doesn't know who you are.

Which to me, means that he was reprogrammed since then.

A computer in a living body.

 

Ok, glad of that. Yeah, I was starting to worry about if we were getting too far off track, since you hadn't posted anything back, and was worried that you were mad at us.

 

Here is the thing - Remember the synth that is being held at gunpoint by the couple ( husband ) wants to kill him. You talk them out of it, because if the Synth was going to kill, wouldn't he have done it by now?

 

Remember how that Synth was fearful?

 

Remember the 2 Art characters. One is a synth and one is not. Both showed equal emotions about dying.

 

Synth Shaun showed NO emotions whatsoever ....

 

None of the kids in the commonwealth show any type of actual emotion. This is just bethesda not knowing how to create children. Case in point. This proves nothing regarding Shaun.