The fiscal cliff

[colourwheel]

The Fiscal cliff is the popular shorthand term used to describe the conundrum that the U.S. government will face at the end of 2012, when the terms of the Budget Control Act of 2011 are scheduled to go into effect.

 

Among the laws set to change at midnight on December 31, 2012, are the end of last year’s temporary payroll tax cuts (resulting in a 2% tax increase for workers), the end of certain tax breaks for businesses, shifts in the alternative minimum tax that would take a larger bite, the end of the tax cuts from 2001-2003, and the beginning of taxes related to President Obama’s health care law. At the same time, the spending cuts agreed upon as part of the debt ceiling deal of 2011 will begin to go into effect. According to Barron's, over 1,000 government programs - including the defense budget and Medicare are in line for "deep, automatic cuts."

 

For most Americans this means that the average tax payer will be paying around $2,000 more in taxes and a bunch of entitlement programs that 100's of millions of americans rely on just to get by will most likely be hurt or dismantled.

 

It might seem like the worst idea ever that the House of congress has ever put together because the end of the year is closing and congress is getting nothing done about it.

 

So far The only thing that has been agreed on by both republican and democratic parties is to extend the bush tax rates for everyone making below $250,000 a year which is around 98% of all americans. The only reason why The Republicans will not budge in my opinion is because they won't pass the proposal unless there is entitlement reforms which i think the real reason is just to hold the middle class hostage yet again to give the top 2% the tax breaks they don't even need.

 

But I was wonding how other feels about this, so let the debate go on...

Edited November 30, 2012 by colourwheel

[Korodic]

I may not know the very specifics of this particular issue, though I can say I've lost every ounce of trust i this government and feel it is not fit to function. They fund too many failing systems, and keep too much in the dark. I know for a fact there are lobby-ers making a very large impact on our government too. PIPA and SOPA are prime examples of hollywood and the other media industries complaining of piracy. ~ yes piracy is bad depending on where your morals are, however we would be sacrificing our internet freedoms to allow them to censor websites in doing so. Of course they are not going to stop trying to censor our internet usage. The internet kill switch pulled in Syria is a prime example of this. Besides the internet, just seeing the "slap on the wrist" attitude they have towards themselves. Cutting down everyone elses wages and raising taxes without feeling the pain themselves. They make decisions on fields they havent the slightest clue on.

 

My major point with that rant jumble above is that they corrupt-able overpaid men in suits who are so disconnected from society that they don't even feel the real effects of their actions. The whole "golden parachute thing" is what really gets me >.>

[juderodney]

Here's how I see it: "something" will get done at the veeeeery last minute. The problem is that "something" will really be nothing at all, except to push the problem to a later date.

[Dan3345]

Here's how I see it: "something" will get done at the veeeeery last minute. The problem is that "something" will really be nothing at all, except to push the problem to a later date.

Pretty much this. Though in todays case, Republicans are more stubborn than ever.. Though there are a few who have said they will break their ridiculous oath. No telling whether or not they will or not.

 

Quite frankly I am tired of this. Really tired of seeing this two sided debate. Call me naive but all I want to see is a government that does not encroach upon the freedom's or individuality of anyone. As long as this government remains financially viable after that, well.. If you could achieve those two things (which you can) I would be very happy. And honestly, I would probably become laid back and stop caring as long as these two things remained constant, but they won't and do not today.

 

I find it really hard to believe democrats cannot accept there is wasted money in many of the entitlement programs. Likewise I find it very hard to believe (especially when the pentagon says it themselves) that the military doesn't need to spend as much as it does.

 

Maybe if we stopped nation building so many countries that hate us, we would have more money at home for entitlement programs people seem to cling too.. And maybe the government's own programs can be a bit more efficient in there dealings..

 

In all honesty, its not our debt thats so scary. We can pay that off, or lower it. Would take a while but it isn't impossible. The real problem is of course the deficit. Fix that, and stop the ceaseless and needless wars and foreign dealings and we will be aces again..

[colourwheel]

Here's how I see it: "something" will get done at the veeeeery last minute. The problem is that "something" will really be nothing at all, except to push the problem to a later date.

 

Just wondering what exactly you think will get done? I mean this can not just be pushed to a later date. The Fiscal cliff is pretty much set in stone. If they do not pass any legislation addressing all these "deep, automatic cuts" everyones taxes will go up and funding to almost every government funded organization as well as the military and programs that a majority of americans rely on will be purged. This won't just effect american either this will have a dramatic impact on the world economy too.

 

The only thing that most likely can be settled as of now is the bush tax cuts being extended for 98% of americans and the top 2% go back to paying the taxes when clinton was in office..

 

The republican party will not agree to do this though unless there is entitlement reform which would probably be very unpopular for both Republican and democratic voters. When john boehner was asked what entitlements would need to be reformed he would never give any specifics. It's just typical to me that the republican party is just trying to protect the the rich from paying more taxes at the expence of 98% of the american people suffering the most.

 

I truely hope the next election the democratic party gains control of congress again. So far this last two years congress has been the worst congress in american history abstructing legislation to protect the interest of the wealthy 2%.

 

I find it really hard to believe democrats cannot accept there is wasted money in many of the entitlement programs. Likewise I find it very hard to believe (especially when the pentagon says it themselves) that the military doesn't need to spend as much as it does.

 

Democrates asked The republicans what entitlement programs they wish to reform. They won't even give specifics on programs that could substantially help because it would be political suicide for them be mentioning popular programs that people would get upset about if they laid it on the line to do so.

 

In all honesty, its not our debt thats so scary. We can pay that off, or lower it. Would take a while but it isn't impossible. The real problem is of course the deficit. Fix that, and stop the ceaseless and needless wars and foreign dealings and we will be aces again..

 

 

Also Dan3345 I agree...

 

The irony about all this is no one really cares about our debt. Yet the republican party always tries to bring it up like it's something so seriously important. The average american doesn't wakes up the next day with the 1st thing on their mind "OMG I am so scared about the debt!" and the the deficit can be reduced over time always...

 

The republican party got us into this mess trying to obstruct legislation to make Obama look bad in office in hopes he would not be re-elected. Yet now that he is the president for the next 4 years I just don't see why Republicans are so hard headed about trying to help fix the economy now.

 

I can understand the republican party is funded mostly by the richest americans yet it's the american people who elected them into office. This is probably why it's so hard to be an elected republican official. They tend to need to seem like they care about the people who elected them into office without out pissing off the rich people who mainly fund them.

 

It seems like the democratic party doesn't have much of this problem.

Edited November 30, 2012 by colourwheel

[JimboUK]

 

The irony about all this is no one really cares about our debt. Yet the republican party always tries to bring it up like it's something so seriously important. The average american doesn't wakes up the next day with the 1st thing on their mind "OMG I am so scared about the debt!" and the the deficit can be reduced over time always...

 

The republican party got us into this mess trying to obstruct legislation to make Obama look bad in office in hopes he would not be re-elected. Yet now that he is the president for the next 4 years I just don't see why Republicans are so hard headed about trying to help fix the economy now.

 

I can understand the republican party is funded mostly by the richest americans yet it's the american people who elected them into office. This is probably why it's so hard to be an elected republican official. They tend to need to seem like they care about the people who elected them into office without out pissing off the rich people who mainly fund them.

 

It seems like the democratic party doesn't have much of this problem.

 

Well maybe it's time they started worrying about it, the cost of servicing that debt is massive and it's only going to get worse. There's no sign of them actually tackling the deficit let alone the debt itself. Not only has the fiscal incompetence in the US and Europe been hugely damaging it's also morally repugnant, we're spending our children's and grandchildrens futures, they'll be the ones who ultimately pay the price for this.

[ginnyfizz]

I totally agree, jim_uk, except I think that the problems caused by turning a blind eye to debt could come sooner than that. Burying your head in the sand, or anywhere else where the sun doesn't shine, is staggeringly naive and irresponsible. Does no one in America realize that we tried that in Europe and it has already come back to bite us in the butt? Greece has already tipped over the edge, Spain, Portugal and Obama's new best friend France are teetering on the brink - France lost their AAA rating as the USA did. Britain and Germany cling on to their AAA ratings by a thread because they have grasped the idea that they and Europe cannot go on like they have, but could still be dragged down by the more profligate. More expensive public sector borrowing caused by a low rating just keeps feeding the problem. And economic nightmares lead to even worse one. Europe. 1930's.

[colourwheel]

 

The irony about all this is no one really cares about our debt. Yet the republican party always tries to bring it up like it's something so seriously important. The average american doesn't wakes up the next day with the 1st thing on their mind "OMG I am so scared about the debt!" and the the deficit can be reduced over time always...

 

The republican party got us into this mess trying to obstruct legislation to make Obama look bad in office in hopes he would not be re-elected. Yet now that he is the president for the next 4 years I just don't see why Republicans are so hard headed about trying to help fix the economy now.

 

I can understand the republican party is funded mostly by the richest americans yet it's the american people who elected them into office. This is probably why it's so hard to be an elected republican official. They tend to need to seem like they care about the people who elected them into office without out pissing off the rich people who mainly fund them.

 

It seems like the democratic party doesn't have much of this problem.

 

Well maybe it's time they started worrying about it, the cost of servicing that debt is massive and it's only going to get worse. There's no sign of them actually tackling the deficit let alone the debt itself. Not only has the fiscal incompetence in the US and Europe been hugely damaging it's also morally repugnant, we're spending our children's and grandchildrens futures, they'll be the ones who ultimately pay the price for this.

 

As most know deficit and the debt are two different things. Most countries never really worry about their national debt as long as they plan on paying it back. It's the deficit that a country should be concered about because it just adds to the debt.

 

What I think is morally repugnant is the republicans threatening to default on paying back debt to other countries as a bargaining effort just to get what they want. (they have tried this before)

 

The GOP created the The fiscal cliff force passing it as something they never thought they would need to deal with or if they did it would be a grand bargaining chip for them to get what ever they wanted to automatically put the country into a huge recession. But as it seems now that they are having to deal with it, The fiscal cliff is less of a bargaining chip for them and more of a bargaining chip for the democrates. Jon Stewart said it best as the situation was like shooting an asteroid at the Earth to make sure we put in the hard work to protect ourselves from asteroids.

Edited November 30, 2012 by colourwheel

[JimboUK]

 

The irony about all this is no one really cares about our debt. Yet the republican party always tries to bring it up like it's something so seriously important. The average american doesn't wakes up the next day with the 1st thing on their mind "OMG I am so scared about the debt!" and the the deficit can be reduced over time always...

 

The republican party got us into this mess trying to obstruct legislation to make Obama look bad in office in hopes he would not be re-elected. Yet now that he is the president for the next 4 years I just don't see why Republicans are so hard headed about trying to help fix the economy now.

 

I can understand the republican party is funded mostly by the richest americans yet it's the american people who elected them into office. This is probably why it's so hard to be an elected republican official. They tend to need to seem like they care about the people who elected them into office without out pissing off the rich people who mainly fund them.

 

It seems like the democratic party doesn't have much of this problem.

 

Well maybe it's time they started worrying about it, the cost of servicing that debt is massive and it's only going to get worse. There's no sign of them actually tackling the deficit let alone the debt itself. Not only has the fiscal incompetence in the US and Europe been hugely damaging it's also morally repugnant, we're spending our children's and grandchildrens futures, they'll be the ones who ultimately pay the price for this.

 

As most know deficit and the debt are two different things. Most countries never really worry about their national debt as long as they plan on paying it back. It's the deficit that a country should be concered about because it just adds to the debt.

 

What I think is morally repugnant is the republicans threatening to default on paying back debt to other countries as a bargaining effort just to get what they want. (they have tried this before)

 

The GOP created the The fiscal cliff force passing it as something they never thought they would need to deal with or if they did it would be a grand bargaining chip for them to get what ever they wanted to automatically put the country into a huge recession. But as it seems now that they are having to deal with it, The fiscal cliff is less of a bargaining chip for them and more of a bargaining chip for the democrates. Jon Stewart said it best as the situation was like shooting an asteroid at the Earth to make sure we put in the hard work to protect ourselves from asteroids.

 

The debt and deficit are linked, if you keep running a huge deficit then that debt increases along with the cost of servicing it. It doesn't matter who's fault it is, the issue has to be dealt with, you can't print it away without running the risk of debasing your economy and causing hyperinflation. Getting out of this mess is going to be painful, I find that pain preferable to selling our children into debt slavery because we are incapable of living within our means.

 

@Ginny exactly.

[colourwheel]

The debt and deficit are linked, if you keep running a huge deficit then that debt increases along with the cost of servicing it. It doesn't matter who's fault it is, the issue has to be dealt with, you can't print it away without running the risk of debasing your economy and causing hyperinflation. Getting out of this mess is going to be painful, I find that pain preferable to selling our children into debt slavery because we are incapable of living within our means.

 

It does matter who's fault it is.

 

Why do you think our debt is so high? Maybe because of bush paying for a false war on a credit card, cutting taxes on the wealthy, letting legislation pass for deregulation for businesses that ended up putting our country on our knees to the banks. Before bush we had a surplus and no debt.

 

The debt had to be risen very high after bushes administration to get us out of the huge hole or we would be bartering with chickens today.

 

since we had surplus back when Clinton was president wouldn't it be wise to go back to taxing the rich at the same rate when he was in office? The republican party won't budge on raising taxes on the rich and holding the middle class hostage yet again unless they get to massively reform entitlements millions rely on.

Edited November 30, 2012 by colourwheel