Fallout's Government Apparently Stupid

[scottym23]

So I have a love for all games Bethesda made, and recently decided to jump on my NV character. I was at the Lucky 38 in my modded suite, and started thinking about how ridiculous this part of the game's lore is. The fact that a single (powerful) man, with an exuberant amount of wealth even, could manufacture and purchase weapons and defenses to keep an entire small city perfectly intact? I MIGHT be able to buy that concept...just maybe....if other locations of significant importance had the same defenses! Obviously the government was as advanced if not more advanced than House's technology, and could afford his security an infinite amount of times over. But nah, the government was on vacation during this time I guess. Why would they bother wasting their time looking into defenses to protect important areas the government deemed vital? No point in doing that whatsoever...

[McclaudEagle]

If there's one thing I've learned since playing Fallout 3 and NV, it's that you shouldn't think too much about the lore and plot. Here are some of the things I think are completely stupid (yet still fun) things of the lore and plot...

 

 

 

 

Fallout 3

 

The Brotherhood of Steel, or rather, Lyon's unit, is poorly equipped, trained and supplied. They have very few soldiers in their ranks, and most of them are still kicking conventional weapons like assault rifles. The Enclave, an army of extremely well trained, equipped and supplied soldiers with advanced power armor and high tech weaponry, combined with a far stronger chain of command, and use Vertibird gunships...get their backsides handed to them by a 5 man army (including the player) and a decrepit 200 year old anti-communist robot...

 

Fallout NV

 

On one side of the Hoover Dam, you have the New California Republic, on the other, you have Caesar's Legion. However, what boggles me about this is; the Legion are wearing armor made from football clothes and wield "machetes", and yet the NCR, who is a fairly well trained army comprising mostly of riflemen somehow can't seem to eliminate the Legion threat...until of course, the heroic and all-mighty powerful player shows up to sway the battle in favor of whoever they choose to support.

 

 

 

 

Moral of the story?

 

According to Vault-Tec research, the Lone Wanderer, Chosen One, Courier, yadda yadda yadda, is a super power by him/herself. No faction in the Wastes can ever win a war or achieve anything until they somehow hire this "super weapon".

[scottym23]

If there's one thing I've learned since playing Fallout 3 and NV, it's that you shouldn't think too much about the lore and plot. Here are some of the things I think are completely stupid (yet still fun) things of the lore and plot...

 

 

 

 

Fallout 3

 

The Brotherhood of Steel, or rather, Lyon's unit, is poorly equipped, trained and supplied. They have very few soldiers in their ranks, and most of them are still kicking conventional weapons like assault rifles. The Enclave, an army of extremely well trained, equipped and supplied soldiers with advanced power armor and high tech weaponry, combined with a far stronger chain of command, and use Vertibird gunships...get their backsides handed to them by a 5 man army (including the player) and a decrepit 200 year old anti-communist robot...

 

Fallout NV

 

On one side of the Hoover Dam, you have the New California Republic, on the other, you have Caesar's Legion. However, what boggles me about this is; the Legion are wearing armor made from football clothes and wield "machetes", and yet the NCR, who is a fairly well trained army comprising mostly of riflemen somehow can't seem to eliminate the Legion threat...until of course, the heroic and all-mighty powerful player shows up to sway the battle in favor of whoever they choose to support.

 

 

 

 

Moral of the story?

 

According to Vault-Tec research, the Lone Wanderer, Chosen One, Courier, yadda yadda yadda, is a super power by him/herself. No faction in the Wastes can ever win a war or achieve anything until they somehow hire this "super weapon".

 

Haha yeah that's so true. The first example you gave from Fallout 3 was kind of half believable in my opinion because we don't know exactly how powerful the robot was, and the second example from NV I never really thought about. I know they used power fists and other mechanical weapons, but do they really not use any guns at all? I thought they did sometimes but preferred hand to hand combat. Hm...I'll have to look into that lol. But I get your point anyway, it's pretty far fetched to think they stand a chance in a war. It's just that so many people I talk to have the same issue with my main point in NV, yet the game developers didn't see it as a problem at all and didn't even address the issue. Kind of annoying >.>

[TrickyVein]

I pretty much shut off my brain when people start talking about Fallout 3 and lore/story in the same sentence. It's so much easier that way. Anyway,

 

Who are you talking about when you mention 'the government' in relation to House? The US government before the war? Why couldn't they have matched House, who was only a CEO in implementing missile defense systems of their own?

 

:armscrossed:

 

We can rationalize it after the fact, but I'd never thought of that before. It is actually entirely believable that government can be as inept and short-sited as this. After all, it would not surprise me very much if the US government defaulted in the first time in its history and went over this 'fiscal cliff' come January. So when it comes to stupid people doing stupid things in government it wouldn't be the fist time, especially not in the paranoia stricken, bad policy driven US government in Fallout.

 

Alternatively, we do know that the Great War was probably more intense and devastating that what anyone, save a clever few, could have planned for. Even House's defense systems weren't entirely successful. If the US government had installed defense systems of their own, I doubt it would have made any difference in the end. The scale of the thing just trumped any kind of contingency, especially when you're talking about defending an entire nation as large as the US.

[ItISTRIKERItI]

So the real reason would be that the Government has no innovation because it lacks the capability. Back in the fifties when this lore takes place the world Governments were bent on Mutual Agreed Destruction or MAD. They would try to win the war by blowing the other guys up as much as they could and then hope that there was something left of their country when they finally climbed out of their holes. Hence the need for all the vaults. No one thought about actually knocking the incoming intercontinental ballistics missiles out of the sky because the technology was not widely yet. I think House even says that he barley got his up in time if I'm not mistaken. House was the ultimate Prepper!

[TrickyVein]

The platinum chip contained the software upgrades that would have made House's defense system fully functional. The fact that the chip is unique suggests that the technology was not available to other parties at the time. You are correct, it seems the capability for missile defense systems probably wasn't there and if it were it certainly wasn't widely distributed.

 

If the technology were available, it is more than likely that it would have been reserved for the shadow government anyway. (Even though it isn't clear that Robco is anything like Poseidon). The vaults actually demonstrate this point perfectly. They were never designed to *save* anyone, as you seem to suggest. They were experiments in human nature and survival for the benefit of the few survivors who expected, and it seems to me, wanted a nuclear war to take place. So back the OP's point, I don't think the US government was 'stupid' so much as it was marginalized and made ineffective by hidden actors, i.e. the Enclave.

 

Anyone who has traveled through Vault 11 could not claim that the vaults were constructed for the benefit of survivors.

[charwo]

The US government by the time House made those Securitrons was so badly in the thrall of the large conglomerates and cartels that made up American business, in particular the military industrial complex that the Enclave crawled out of, that's it's abilities to protect it's citizens had been fatally undermined. It was also in it's 11th year of fighting World War III with the People Republic with the world largely antagonistic to it, although probably more scared of of China in intent, far more frightened by the US in the scope of its power. Some people call this Fascism, but when state power is yoked to private business's ends and not vice versa it is kleptocracy. For all the atomicpunk vibes, the pre war world was in fact cyberpunk distopia. It also had made fatal compromises that led it to economic ruin, much like Nazi Germany. basically, while the US government concerned itself with ending World War III, and the Enclave in malign negligent did nothing to stop it from going nuclear, large businesses like Robco ran all of their affairs as they and they alone saw fit, as long as the taxes were paid and military orders were filled. The United States of 2077 was exhausted and it's elite corrupt to levels seen only in the Gilded Age.

 

That's the scary part about Fallout. It DOES make sense, and it IS probable, at least everything until the third hour after the nuclear exchange. The Pre War 's frighteningly possible. Everything in the Pre War has real world precedents.

[scottym23]

Wow it's amazing the different theories and perspectives that people have haha, it's making me look at the situation in an entirely new perspective. I don't necessarily agree with them all, but the one that would be remotely plausible in my mind is if the shadow government controlled the army, navy, and finances. That way they could effectively vote down any law or bill being passed to enhance their defenses and so on. But that theory would also have to be true for every other 1st world country's government too; because we have to assume that like China there were other countries just as powerful and technologically savvy as our own who could build defenses like Houses. So for America this theory seems completely plausible, but when applied to the entire world it seems remotely plausible..Still one of the best theories I've heard yet! Thanks to the people who put their opinions in :D.

[phoneyLogic]

 

 

Fallout NV

 

On one side of the Hoover Dam, you have the New California Republic, on the other, you have Caesar's Legion. However, what boggles me about this is; the Legion are wearing armor made from football clothes and wield "machetes", and yet the NCR, who is a fairly well trained army comprising mostly of riflemen somehow can't seem to eliminate the Legion threat...until of course, the heroic and all-mighty powerful player shows up to sway the battle in favor of whoever they choose to support.

 

 

 

 

Moral of the story?

 

According to Vault-Tec research, the Lone Wanderer, Chosen One, Courier, yadda yadda yadda, is a super power by him/herself. No faction in the Wastes can ever win a war or achieve anything until they somehow hire this "super weapon".

 

As I understand the concept behind was that all major factions are almost equal strong.

Mr. Hose has his army of robots,

Cesar has a very well trained Legion, which has been formed out of the hardest man of many tribes,

the NCR should be well trained, very well equipped, but outnumbered.

 

This would work well, but unfortunately the whole Wasteland is way too small to reflect this difficulties. If you walk around you get the impression that everything is just 5 minutes away. The wasteland in FO1 and 2 was way larger. You spent whole days and weeks wandering around - not in real time of cause.

 

The small Wasteland of NV just ruined everything. The Mojave isn't even dangerous. There's no dessert/wasteland, but a small sandbox. :dry:

 

But frankly, if they would have made the area really large, everyone would have complained that the Wasteland would have been too empty. Folks want to stumble over sth at least every 5 yards.

 

...

 

And the player is a hard boiled bad ass who changes the balance between powers by influencing factions in one or another way.

 

He's no super weapon by himself, but the one who plays his cards so that a certain faction can win.

 

And if you think about, the player was introduced as a tool used by other people for their plans. Then he turns the game by making his own decisions...

 

Moral of the story: Don't piss off a courier, he may ruin your day.

:cool:

 

 

If the technology were available, it is more than likely that it would have been reserved for the shadow government anyway. (Even though it isn't clear that Robco is anything like Poseidon). The vaults actually demonstrate this point perfectly. They were never designed to *save* anyone, as you seem to suggest. They were experiments in human nature and survival for the benefit of the few survivors who expected, and it seems to me, wanted a nuclear war to take place. So back the OP's point, I don't think the US government was 'stupid' so much as it was marginalized and made ineffective by hidden actors, i.e. the Enclave.

 

Anyone who has traveled through Vault 11 could not claim that the vaults were constructed for the benefit of survivors.

 

That's FO2 lore, in FO1 there's nothing of it. I don't really like FO2 for this kind of stuff it introduced.

In FO1 it was a situation like "They did everything they can to be prepared, but it went wrong. The Waterchip had a malfunction.". Other Vaults had other serious problems.

 

FO2 has the tone of "they didn't even try to save anyone". :dry:

Edited December 10, 2012 by tortured Tomato

[TrickyVein]

Right, that's the general attitude I find that people have about the first two games. The second brought it into unfamiliar and strange territory. No one is going to force you to accept a different reality if you want to ignore the lore from Fo2, but here's my two cents:

 

The second one was the first that I played, so I'm biased. The war was not wrought unexpectedly from the sky. It didn't just happen out of the blue and make victims of us all. I think this is nonsense. It forces us to put the focus on ourselves, and how we went wrong as a society, rather than shift focus to something out of our control, something unexpected. The pre-war world had to have been insane and not a place any of us would have wanted to have lived for this scale of conflict to have been pursued to its equally insane end (and no, I don't think you can just as conveniently place all the blame on Cheng). It is not credible that a project as ambitious and expensive as the vault program would have been undertaken for purely humanitarian purposes. There were individuals who prepared for war, expected it to happen, and meant to survive and come out the other side with the upper hand. If you've seen "Dr. Strangelove..." you may recall that top officials in the US war room, moments before a rogue bomber dropped its payload on the Russians and started WWIII, swiftly changed their focus from the numbers of bombs each side had to a "mine shaft gap." Did the enemy have more to hide in and rebuild society after the surface was made unlivable? This was the mentality of our leaders during the cold war. It is credible that the governments in Fallout were just as paranoid if not more so than ours.