Nerevarine, 7th Champion of Cyrodiil & Dragonborn

[Lachdonin]

We could spend the next 5 pages arguing the point back and forth, about why i can't consider Pelinal a Shezzarine, and why you do. Both sides, i am sure, will have points to their support, and in the end neither of us will convince the other (though either of us may convince others to our camp).

 

As it stands, however, there is no out of universe statement to contradict Kirkbride's list. From any source that i can locate.

 

Of course, that can all be irrelivent, because there is an arguement to be made (and has been made, many a time) that ALL the PC's are Shezzarines. This would mean that being a Shezzarine would offer no additional advantages over any other competitor, because they would all be the same, so we're back to examining their accomplishments, rather than what reborn-hero they are or the accomplishments of said hero.

[sajuukkhar9000]

This has nothing to do about personal belief, I was merely pointing out that the list you used for Lorkhan's avatars came out BEFORE Pelinal was actually a thing, thus doesn't include him because he wasn't created yet, not because Kirkbride doesn't consider him an avatar of Lorkhan.

[Amalurian]

The champion of cyrodiil was so powerful that he suffered the same fate of Jyggalag, dont forget this.

[Lachdonin]

This has nothing to do about personal belief, I was merely pointing out that the list you used for Lorkhan's avatars came out BEFORE Pelinal was actually a thing, thus doesn't include him because he wasn't created yet, not because Kirkbride doesn't consider him an avatar of Lorkhan.

 

 

Huh, you do seem to be right, Pelinal didn't exist before Oblivion. He would also fit in with the last, unused letter in Lorkhan (considering the letters themselves don't seem to actually correspond with the name of their 'holder'). Still, I am hesitant to attribute every great hero in history as being a Shezzarine. Being powerful and killing Elves doesn't instantly make one an avatar of Lorkhan. Look at Ysgrammor.

[Psychosisfear]

I made an account just for this topic, because seriously, you guys are glazing over s#*! I cant even imagine. Since this started, Ive read into most of the lore, but most of the arguments for whoever wins in this thread arent based on lore, most just spout some theories or game flaws. If we go by game designs, then the Dragonborn, Nerevarine, and Martin's Errand Boy all sit down drinking tea while causing mutilating each other's bodies. Why? TGM. Taking into account all the lore based power levels of the characters on the other hand, shows that Nerevarine > Dragonborn > Martin's Errand Boy.

 

Lets start with Martin's Errand Boy. Why do I call him that? Thats pretty much all you were in Oblivion. You didnt fight Mehrunes Dagon, you watched Akatosh manifest himself in Martin and do it for you. You were able to kill jyggalag, sure, but lets just keep in mind here that no one had ever tried to stop the Greymarch, so its entirely possible that Jyggalag was weak as s#*! in that form, as it WAS cursed upon him because of his power, it would make sense for it to weaken him. The other parts of the game, you did nothing too spectacular, at least for main characters. Sure for an average adventurer, you did a lot. Im going to utterly ignore Mantling here, because quite simply, NO. Ill explain more when I get to the Nerevarine.

 

Now, onto Dragonborn. So far, everyone has brought up the Thuum. I... Am I missing something? Even in the game the Thuum was weak as s#*! once you got to a decent level, it was only good for tactics, which by the time you got to that level, were no longer needed. The fact is, the Thuum is the only real special thing about the Dragonborn. Even then, lets face facts here. Thuum has been beaten at Red Mountain, by Nerevar at that. The whole "Thuum wins" theory just went out the window. Lets move on to the Dragonborn DLC questline. Congratulations! you are

Hermaeus Mora's b&@*$. What is this great power you get? About the equivalent of a decently powerful illusion spell.

Thats not even beginning to get into the reality of "dragonborn". As for the whole Vampire lord argument, all those nifty little items that you get come off in that form, which will damage you badly. Then lets go even deeper. The Vampire Lord form is basically a suped up werewolf form with magic instead of melee. Thats... pretty much it. Oh, and you get a nifty little floating animation, which is awesome, but still.

 

To top it all off, let me explain the Nerevarine. We arent talking about a random adventurer here. We are talking about a man/woman who strolled into morrowind and took everything by storm. What I mean is this. Following solely the lore of Morrowind, lets add things up. We know the Tribunal has beaten armies alone before, along with the Deadric Princes. Sure, that was with Lorkhan's power, but thats kinda the point. See, when the Nerevarine fights Dagoth Ur, he is stronger than the other False Gods, immensely so, enough to keep all three of them away from the tools. That being said, he fell to the nerevarine, who then proceeded to go to Mournhold and f*#@ with Almalexia for a bit. At this point in time, unlike vivec, Almalexia had been outside of the public eye for a long time. It was said that only Vivec was keeping the ghostgate up. This means Almalexia was conserving her strength, along with Sotha Sil. That being taken into account, lets look even deeper. What happens to power when it is conserved, but not used? It builds up. What happens when the source of that power vanishes, does the built up power vanish with it? No, thats common sense 101. Most will complain that Almalexia should be weakened, whether from her fight with Sotha Sil, which doesnt seem like much of a fight honestly, or the destruction (displacement) of Lorkhan's Heart. Both are false. Now, lets move onto the bloodmoon questline. Most point out that the aspect of Hircine was just that, a mere aspect. Id like to point out further how he is weaker than Mehrunes Dagon, whom Almalexia bested before.

 

Enough about that, Im going to make a few last points which will hopefully prove it to everyone.

 

1. Each artifact that COC and DB had, the Nerevarine had first, thus, he has them all plus more.

2. The CHIM/Mantling theories are all well and good in theory. The problem lies within the fact that the moment that you say one of the characters can do it, the others may as well. This means, Nerevarine could have become Lorkhan (keep in mind very few people knew of the heart, and no one understood it completely, so Nerevarine's supposed disappearance after Morrowind could have been from him accidentally absorbing the heart, becoming one with Nirn, and thus, Lorkhan), DB couldve become Alduin, or even Akatosh if you go deep enough, and COC couldve become Sheogorath/Jyggalag. Thus, all that is moot.

3. As its stated before, the truth is that it is entirely possible, according to all sources I know of, that each of them are in fact the same person.

4. This is less relevant to the conversation but still holds an idea. Its very likely that, with the removal of Lorkhan's heart, magic itself is weakening as a result.

5. Each of the characters are, in essence, everything, and nothing. That Chim theory is insane. I call it a theory, because even though its in game lore, its never going to be 'proven' in game... Well, nevermind its certainly possible to be done.

6. Nerevarine is literally the only character who was directly mentioned in a prophecy, not by name, but by impossible actions that he achieved. That doesnt signify power, its signifies purpose. As someone said previously, rule of cool. Something about that prophecy just makes the Nerevarine the coolest so far.

[Moshadawg]

 

Lets start with Martin's Errand Boy. Why do I call him that? Thats pretty much all you were in Oblivion. You didnt fight Mehrunes Dagon, you watched Akatosh manifest himself in Martin and do it for you. You were able to kill jyggalag, sure, but lets just keep in mind here that no one had ever tried to stop the Greymarch, so its entirely possible that Jyggalag was weak as s*** in that form, as it WAS cursed upon him because of his power, it would make sense for it to weaken him. The other parts of the game, you did nothing too spectacular, at least for main characters. Sure for an average adventurer, you did a lot. Im going to utterly ignore Mantling here, because quite simply, NO. Ill explain more when I get to the Nerevarine.

 

My main character in Oblivion fought Mehrunes Dagon :) Unfortunately neither one of us could defeat the other. I went toe to toe with him for at least 10 minutes before I decided it was a waste of time and just moved on.

 

For me personally I think that it was either my Nerevarine or Champion of Cyrodiil that was most powerful. Of course, I cheated hardcore on my most powerful Morrowind character, exploiting the Soul Trap glitch. My CoC cheated by using the permanent enchantments glitch with the duplicating items with arrows thing, but he wasn't as ridiculously powerful as my Nerevarine. He was still practically invincible though. I have not discovered a glitch like this on Skyrim so I have never had a Dragonborn as powerful as them. I'm against cheating now anyway, so I wouldn't use it if there was one.

 

Cheating and glitches aside, from a more general perspective, I think that the Nerevarine is probably the most powerful one. He just has a certain sense of grandeur that I don't see with the others. I feel like the Nerevarine develops so much more in terms of power from the beginning of the game to the end. In the beginning you get killed by freaking mudcrabs and later on you can kill most things with one solid hit. And yes, Morrowind does present the player with more unbalanced items that make you a complete badass. I also feel that the Nerevarine is much more mystical and enigmatic than the other two, which lends to his sense of power.

 

Concerning the Dragonborn: Anybody can kill a dragon, but only the Dragonborn can absorb their soul. If you pit your CoC or Nerevarine against some dragons they would do just as well, they just simply wouldn't be able to absorb their soul. Sure, the Dragonborn may specialize in killing dragons, but when he fights anything else he is just another guy pretty much. The Voice helps him, but there are much more powerful things that a person could utilize.

[krycerbryce]

just saying the Neravarine is also dragon born. just didnt have any dragon souls to absorb XD

[Lachdonin]

just saying the Neravarine is also dragon born. just didnt have any dragon souls to absorb XD

 

That part was cleared up after the Skyrim release. The 'Dragon Born' in the Nerevarine Prophesy refers to the Incarnate being born in the Imperial Province (IE Cyrodiil) not that he was of the Dragon Blood.

[eaterofwords]

barring CHIM (which could be argued all PCs possess)

 

MY COMPUTER ACHIEVED ENLIGHTENMENT!?!?!?!?

[Ambiguous]

I know this is a discussion thread about the latest 3 PCs, but I'm fascinated by the concept of CHIM.

 

If you succeed you attain god-like powers, if you fail, you are instantly erased from existence.

 

Is that what happened to the Dwemer? I may be mis-remembering it, but I'm sure I read somewhere that they communicated via telepathy, is it possible that they, as a species, attempted to collectively achieve CHIM to reform Mundus, failed, and were zero-summed out of existence?

 

I also love the fact that it validates my constant cheating via the command console, my characters have achieved CHIM, and can therefore do whatever the hell they want.