Obama: Worst president in the last 100 years

[xrayy]

conspiracists and "alternative facts spreaders" are spread all over the world. as you can see all these kind of conspiracy driven leaders have a problem with the facts of the corona pandemic and their miserable fail to manage it. and most of them have even more problems with handling truth and science.
conspiracists even exist in my country. i'm happy that it is only a small minority and nobody take them serious. they are left and right wing steered and they even demonstrate against corona measures together. funny and sad at the same time.
what they share is that they are so deep in the rabbit hole that they ignore all together common and already proven facts. it is impossible to convince these conspiracists from these proven facts of a real world. that is what also happens in our debates here and that is why people still would vote for other conspiracists and permanent proven lyers like trump. is is not important what they say , it is just important that their conspirational theories fit to the own crude or conspirational picture of the world. it seems many missleaded people in many countries live with this "alternative facts" picture of the current world.

i have lost hope to find something joining with people who believe in their "alternative facts". their sources are strange, not proven, not scientific. but this is no reason for them to search a serious source but to aggressively discredit already proven sources with dumb arguments. why trusting a doctor if i can ask - dumb as i am - a witch or a self announced specialist ?

why not simply ignoring as a good conspiracist that over a 6 billion people are infected or dumbly ignore that 160000 of them died already ? and why is it such an an important argument that there is someone who still puts me some more dollars in my pocket and shouts "my country first" claiming that others are sleepy and a big danger for the counties future ?

all i hope is that these kind of people and potential voters leave their rabbit hole and their irrational theories before climate and corona strikes back - what it already does, but in future with more intensity! i can assure conspiracy and dumb ignorance of facts and lies will not solve any problem in long term but it may lead to another 4 years with a non empathic lying clown as an u.s. president. i really love trump as a clown and entertainer - but as a leader of a country he is imho just a mess and already a danger- all that obama never was, not even to a minimum extent. it is kind of sad for me to see so much wide spread ignorance of important facts and it is not so much about which leader is good or bad but just the pure ignorance of the facts and that a current president acts as a permanent lyer and a follower driven egoist and that he does this all intentionally divisive and non empathic whenever he can.
it is disturbing for me that so many people in the u.s. can live with that and even support how this president acts and behaves.

[Perraine]

Please provide actual proof of any of these "lies" that Trump has told. Trump is a pompous a$$, no question, and compared to someone like Obama he does come across as an extra from "Deliverance" rather than an actual "statesman".

But I'm yet to see anyone actually PROVE that Trump is this completly evil entity that the MSM and others claim him to be.

 

I'm also curious as to what more you believe Trump could have done during the so called pandemic, without infringing on the sovereign rights of the individual states, which, I'll remind you, were the ones responsible for not only policy implementation, but also who's responsibility it was to ask for federal aid if they required it.

 

Also, before continuing the myths about the current pandemic you may want to carefully read through the following page:

 

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm

 

In other words the current pandemic is not actually any worse than previous years, and in those years we did not have lockdowns, and restrictions, nor the decimation of economies.

[Zaldir]

Didn't really plan to jump in here, but here goes...

Please provide actual proof of any of these "lies" that Trump has told.

A link was already given by OldSaltyCroc. That website provides references for all the data.

More importantly though:

Also, before continuing the myths about the current pandemic you may want to carefully read through the following page:
https://www.cdc.gov/...eekly/index.htm
In other words the current pandemic is not actually any worse than previous years, and in those years we did not have lockdowns, and restrictions, nor the decimation of economies.

 

 

 

That image (data) clearly shows that deaths have increased drastically since COVID-19 hit the US. Compare April 2020 to April 2017, 2018, 2019 - there's a huge difference (January 2018 was the height of the flu epidemic in the US, for reference). There is a huge death spike, even when restrictions were finally put in place.

 

Going back to the specific page you linked to, COVID-19 accounts for ~10% of all deaths in the US recently. When a new, mostly unknown virus accounts for such a large percentage of deaths there is reasonable call for concern. Had there not been a lockdown and other measures there would have been more deaths.

 

This is quite a typical resonse to active measures being taken. Measures were taken to reduce the number of deaths. People see that not as many died as was predicted/feared. They then question why the measures were put into action to begin with, without considering that the reason the death toll did not reach the predicted number is exactly because measures to fight the epidemic were taken.

[Perraine]

Hahahahaha ... Seriously? You consider factcheck.org a reliable source? :laugh: They are so fake and biased it goes beyond mere disinformation and into the realm of purposeful LIES. 99.99% of their so called "fact checks" are nothing more than "straw man" arguments, where they purposely either take quotes out of context, withhold data, or add in outright falsehoods to try and make their case.

 

A perfect example is the recent "tweet" by Trump, that Democrats had removed "god" from their pledges. In that article they actually even admit that some speakers DID IN FACT omit the reference, (which is ALL that Trump said) but then they added more context to say that ... "well Ummm, not ALL speakers omitted the reference to god ... So ummm ... Trump is lying".

 

It's completely disingenuous and totally disgusting that people actual believe that garbage. So unless you have a better source than that, then I can confidently say that the contention that Trump is always a liar is totally false, and your argument is therefore totally invalid.

 

...

 

Ahhh, I think you need to go and read the graph again. The data, and associated graph, show excess deaths above the "PREDICTED" number. It is impossible to know exactly how many extra deaths occurred due SPECIFICALLY to covid, until 2020 ends.

 

It's also impossible to know "precisely" how many of the listed deaths were directly caused by covid, or whether those people would have died anyway. However, seeing as the "average" number of comorbidities is 2.6 (i.e. the people had between 2 and 3 other infirmities that "could" have led to death) It seems likely that the reported death count "from" covid is SIGNIFICANTLY overemphasised.

[Zaldir]

When someone says "The Democrats took the word GOD out of the Pledge of Allegiance at the Democrat National Convention." it paints a clear picture of what their intent is - to twist the truth ever so slightly so that it seems worse than it really is. If he had wanted to be truthful he would have, as he did later, said "Some Democrats took out...". But no, he said "The Democrats", which does not mean one or two, but the party as a whole. That is misleading. Not a lie, but misleading, exactly as Factcheck titled the article. Factcheck.org does not just deal with lies, but also misleading statements which is exactly what that tweet is.

 

Trump is not "always a liar", but he lies all the time, even more so than the usual politician who in general also lies all the time. The difference is the frequency of lying, not whether or not they are lying.

 

---

 

That graph does indeed show predicted number of deaths, due to the reporting of deaths being very slow. Though, as you can see here, in a very similar graph:

 

 

The reported and predicted numbers match up very well, with the last few weeks being off due to reporting of deaths taking weeks. There is no reason to believe that the predicted number from the last few weeks will not match as well as it has the last few months.

 

It is unlikely that so many excess deaths are due to "normal" reasons, and there is no reason to doubt that these excess deaths are a result of COVID-19. Yes there are comorbidities, but those would have been present in earlier years as well, meaning that the excess deaths are highly probable to be the result of COVID-19. When the death counts have been so stable over the years it would be ignorant or disingenious to say that these excess deaths are not the result of COVID-19.

[Perraine]

Unfortunately It seems we have a difference of opinion. I'm afraid I don't automatically "assume" that Trump was referring to all Democrats, neither do I always "assume" the very worst or "loose" interpretation of what people say. I prefer to actually discover the "facts" for myself. Which is why I find places like "factcheck.org" so abhorrent, because they always, ALWAYS, taint everything with their own perceptions, or judgements. They are NEVER unbiased as they would like you to believe. However , the same is true for all of us.

 

Could Trump use an elocution tutor, or at least an English Professor to advise and teach him? Oh my goodness YES! His delivery of speeches, and his general lack of "polish" make most of the things he says "cringe worthy". But I don't see any evidence that he outright "lies". And saying that he is sometimes "misleading", only tells me that you are allowing yourself to be led, and not actually thinking for yourself.

 

...

As to the covid numbers, I guess that also depends on your interpretation of "very well" when it comes to the discrepancies. Is 1 death difference "close enough"? 10? 50? When does it stop being "very well"?

 

As I read through "what" the actual comorbidities were, and looked at the ages of those unfortunate people, It became less and less clear (to me at least) that covid was in any way as significant as some claim. Then too, the number of deaths may also have been thrown out of whack, not due to covid directly, but because of the "panic" that has been engendered surround the virus.

 

The poor, and in some cases bordering on criminal, implementation of governmental policy, and the lack of knowledge about this particular strain of the SARS type virus has definetly increased the mortality rate, but NOT because the virus is inherently more deadly than previously known or partially known viruses, and most definetly not to the extent that the MSM and some politicians are claiming.

[Zaldir]

I guess we just disagree on some fundamental levels (and likely agree on others), so it is unlikely that we will ever sway the other in any way when it comes to these topics. As you say, we all have our biases and the two of us have biases and backgrounds that make us see things differently. And that's alright, I've said my piece.

[Perraine]

Agreed :laugh: What say we re-open the discussion when the United Federation of Planets is finally formed, and we can argue over a replicated bottle of Romulan Ale?

[Zaldir]

Agreed :laugh: What say we re-open the discussion when the United Federation of Planets is finally formed, and we can argue over a replicated bottle of Romulan Ale?

 

Looking forward to it! :laugh:

[HeyYou]

The measures put in place by various government entities to 'reduce the impact' of covid, really aren't saving lives, they are just extending the timeline of those deaths. (spreading them out over a longer time period) In the end, once the fat lady sings, the number of covid dead is going to be very similar to what we would have seen had we done nothing, and just let the disease run its course. The idea behind the lockdown, and various other measures, was to prevent hospitals, and other care facilities from being overwhelmed with cases all at once. The measures *may* save a few lives, but, the number isn't going to be real significant. A vaccine, on the other hand, *should* dramatically reduce the impact, and let us reopen our economy, and get folks back to work.