US admits extreme 'interrogation' methods

[Breton Thief Oriana]

I still wonder about this, like why we didnt look down at the floor and speak into the microphone "We ****ed up..."

[Rynos]

Have any of you seen the video of terrorists beheading a man...

 

It makes you sick hearing him before they slice his head off...

 

I think if we (the US) has to torture a few people to save many then it is better to do so. Its war. Wars not pretty, happy, and always lawful... You do what you have to to win. Although I do not think Bush had a good idea with going to war with Iraq atm, it was going to happen eventually.

[Guest]

The problem with saying 'I think if we (the US) has to torture a few people to save many then it is better to do so. Its war. Wars not pretty, happy, and always lawful... ' is that not only do you condone the actions of US Troops in Iraq, but you then must condone the actions of the terrorists. You cannot set a standard for one country and not apply it to others.

 

Doing so make the United States as a whole seem hypocritical. In order for our actions (namely the war) to seem justified we must hold ourselves to a higher standard, then when people look at the war they say "Look at how barbaric those terrorists are, they will stop at nothing, even murdering innocent civilians." People can't, or at least shouldn't, be able to say that when our own troops go against everything our country stands for and abuse prisoners of war.

 

In the end these actions of abuse against POWs makes us no better then the people we are fighting to stop. We are TERRORIZING members of another country into giving us information that we don't even know they have. Right now the United States are the terrorists. We are an occupying army in a country we have no right being in.

 

Like it or not, we are in the wrong. Not those terrorists that chopped off the mans head on TV. They were retaliating for what we have done.

 

Tell me now how you can see any right in the actions of the prison guards. Tell me you can be proud of a country that would blatantly abuse individuals personal freedoms. Because I cannot.

[Mojlnir]

Alright, enough. Yes, the war was initiated on somewhat questionable grounds...great job pointing it out! For the 1 billionth time. The situation as it now presents itself is what must be dealt with, not hypothetical "revisionist" scenario's of what might have been. The fact of the matter is that we are currently at war, and though it might not really feel like it at home, people are dying every day on dusty streets 9,000 miles away. And, guess what, the American military is not in Iraqi to pursecute its citizens wantonly for sh*ts and giggles, they are attempting to rebuild a once powerful nation that was held hostage by a sociopathic dictator.

 

Do you guys know why tactics like torture are employed? Because at some point along the way, there was a 10 year old kid that walked up to a soldier and threw a grenade into his truck. I have a friend who was in a Marine counter terrorist unit that was stationed in Saudi during the 90's and listening to him talk made me understand that while the tactics are abhorrent, they serve a purpose. Torture (as Dark has pointed out) is an intensely effective method of collecting critical information. "Do you know where the weapons cache is?" "Nope" "Well, then...we will turn the lights on and off until you tell us!" Pardon me while I cringe in fear. Torture has existed for as long as man has gone to war and any nation that has previously been at war has employed it. There are no clean hands here. NONE.

 

Things are going to get a lot worse in the world before they get any better. Divergent groups are at such loggerheads that there is little chance that a radically anti-Western group is simply going to turn tail and sign on to globalization. Disagreement breeds conflict and conflict breeds war. And to be sucessfull in war you need intelligence. Intelligence comes from several sources: satellite imagery, signals and humint (human intelligence). A satellite cannot tell you when the next meeting will be held or where. Signals can be avoided or encrypted. People are excellent sources of information, but they tend not to talk if they believe that the punishment inflicted on them by their comrades will be greater than that of their captors. Hence torture. Talk to any military servicee person who has gone through POW training and watch them shudder. Its not fun. Its not nice to talk about and its hard to find justification when you're standing on the sidelines making comments based on network news.

 

War is here to stay. Torture is here to stay. Terrorism is here to stay. Learn to deal with it. Until then keep making all the witty remarks you want. Or try to invade the US, cause thats such a great plan.

[Malchik]

If the US espouses the use of torture on innocent civilians then those civilians are entitled to retaliate by any means they have at their disposal.

 

You seem to forget that terrorist, as I said in my definition, depends on which side you are on. If the US doesn't like a regime, those fighting it are called 'freedom-fighters', if it does they are 'terrorists'. From the Iraqi perspective it is the invading force who are the equivalent of terrorists.

 

Yes, they made their torture and murder very public but that was because they believe they have right on their side. If someone walked into your house brandishing a gun and you shot him, you would I am sure feel you had right on your side.

 

That torture has existed for thousands of years is hardly an excuse for justification. Good grief we are supposed to have evolved! Are we to go back to the ducking stools of the seventeenth century? Do we return to the theory that you know a woman is a witch because she doesn't drown only to discover that those thought to be witches couldn't have been because they all drowned?

 

There is no excuse for what the US has been doing in Guantanamo Bay or to the Iraqis in prison.

 

And please don't try a mealy mouthed defence that Saddam Hussein was a sociopath. There are other dictators as bad, and worse, but no 'oil' at stake to influence the US's thinking. And YOU put him there in the first place, as with all those ghastly central american dictators that caused bloody revolutions.

 

Until you understand and accept that errors have been and are being made things will get worse. Now many more are happy to die for a cause the US never intended to be the enemy. To prevent it spiralling out of control it must be seen to be doing everything it can to put the error straight. Until it does, it is by far the biggest cause of the escalation of terrorism in the world today.

[Shakkara]

Alright, enough. Yes, the war was initiated on somewhat questionable grounds...great job pointing it out! For the 1 billionth time. The situation as it now presents itself is what must be dealt with, not hypothetical "revisionist" scenario's of what might have been. The fact of the matter is that we are currently at war, and though it might not really feel like it at home, people are dying every day on dusty streets 9,000 miles away. And, guess what, the American military is not in Iraqi to pursecute its citizens wantonly for sh*ts and giggles, they are attempting to rebuild a once powerful nation that was held hostage by a sociopathic dictator.

The 'attempts' at rebuilding are just as questionable as the motives used to invade this sovereign nation. And the US soldiers are harrassing and robbing the Iraqi citizens they claim to liberate.

 

Do you guys know why tactics like torture are employed? Because at some point along the way, there was a 10 year old kid that walked up to a soldier and threw a grenade into his truck.

Good job, I hope the soldier got killed and that the kid grows up to kill more of them in defense of his nation and his freedom.

 

I have a friend who was in a Marine counter terrorist unit that was stationed in Saudi during the 90's and listening to him talk made me understand that while the tactics are abhorrent, they serve a purpose. Torture (as Dark has pointed out) is an intensely effective method of collecting critical information. "Do you know where the weapons cache is?" "Nope" "Well, then...we will turn the lights on and off until you tell us!" Pardon me while I cringe in fear. Torture has existed for as long as man has gone to war and any nation that has previously been at war has employed it. There are no clean hands here. NONE.

Way to go, take the door on the left so you can be reassigned to serve lord Sauron and prepare for the invasion and oppression of the free lands of Earth.

 

Things are going to get a lot worse in the world before they get any better. Divergent groups are at such loggerheads that there is little chance that a radically anti-Western group is simply going to turn tail and sign on to globalization.

Currently globalization is a threat to freedom and must be opposed at all costs.

 

Disagreement breeds conflict and conflict breeds war. And to be sucessfull in war you need intelligence. Intelligence comes from several sources: satellite imagery, signals and humint (human intelligence). A satellite cannot tell you when the next meeting will be held or where. Signals can be avoided or encrypted. People are excellent sources of information, but they tend not to talk if they believe that the punishment inflicted on them by their comrades will be greater than that of their captors. Hence torture. Talk to any military servicee person who has gone through POW training and watch them shudder. Its not fun. Its not nice to talk about and its hard to find justification when you're standing on the sidelines making comments based on network news.

Well I've yet to hear any valid justification for these criminal actions comming from you.

 

War is here to stay. Torture is here to stay. Terrorism is here to stay. Learn to deal with it. Until then keep making all the witty remarks you want. Or try to invade the US, cause thats such a great plan.

They are only here because there are misguided people like you. And the US will fall apart soon anyway, so no reason to help in that aspect.

[Guest]

I keep reading this stuff, and I think I've found some sort of underlining cause behind it all. People have stopped questioning their leaders. They've turned a blind eye to the politics of the president, and don't really care what he does until some news organization brings his dirty laundry public, so to speak.

 

Shakkara, I am a citizen of the United States, and a hate what is happening to my country, but you're right. One day it will fall apart, and I just hope I'm not here to see it.

 

Malchik, not all of us had a choice in the matter of US politics. I didn't put Saddam Hussien into power, I merely watched as he destroyed the lives of people, and threatened the use of WMD's. Likewise, humans have evolved beyond the use of torture, but I don't think torture has anything to do with this.

 

"Fear will keep the local systems in line, fear of this battlestation."

 

In some respect, the United States has initiated a policy of fear, beginning with the gloriously praised PATRIOT act, which does little more then give the government the right to spy on its citizens without any proper justification then 'He looked suspicious.' Now I here that PATRIOT II is in the works. Wonderous, glourious, good, another paper that say you can restrict my freedoms anytime you want.

 

"And what of the Rebellion, if they've obtained a full technical readout. They could find a weakness, and exploit it."

 

I think the world as a whole reached a turning point on 9/11, and don't worry, I'm not going to shout about the Twin Towers, it happened, big deal, but the world saw that terrorists, freedom-fighters, the rebellion, so to speak, was bold enough to strike people in their own country.

 

The people of the world meed to stop letting their leaders control their lives, there have got to be other alternatives. The most obvious choice would be to let the United States wallow in the hole it dug for itself, and perish just the same. The problem I see with that is, when the US collapses it will impact other nations. I can't give you specific examples, because I don't know any. But economically, the fall of the United States would cripple other nations, sowing the seeds for other terrorist/liberty groups to step up and cause more chaos.

 

"Wipe them out, all of them."

 

I didn't elect President Bush I wasn't old enough. But I can tell you right now that I won't be voting for him in the fall. Not that my vote will count, I live in his home state, but I will vote. For now, it is the best I can do. And if it doesn't work, I may move to Britain.

[Malchik]

I am not advocating the collapse of the US, I think that is Shakkara, perhaps a little tongue-in-cheek, perhaps not.

 

Nor am I trying to pretend we can pull out of Iraq and say it was all a mistake. I am trying to be objective in the use of torture and tactics. To much of the world the US is seen as a bully and an eliminator of freedoms to be resisted at all costs. All that is happening by the exposure of torture is that this view is being re-inforced.

 

At an individual level we do things we believe needed to be done, but others seeing the actions may judge us (as we see it) incorrectly. We then have to persuade them otherwise. The same is true in Iraq. All I am saying is that revelations of the human atrocities commited do the exact opposite. This polarises more and more of the world towards Shakkara's extreme views and encourages others in countries where there is little real 'life' to look forward to to take up arms against the US.

 

It is certainly not what I want to happen but if the US goes on showing that they do not care what the rest of the world thinks, friends and enemies alike, they will find themselves without friends. They will be alone in trying to police the world they want and implode under the internal social strife that reintroduction of the draft and inevitable high body counts will bring.

 

I repeat it is not what I want. Only the US voters themselves can stop it happening and I see little hope in that at the moment.

 

Nothing of this is aimed at specific Americans, some of whom are enlightened but at the vast number who don't realise that the US is not the only important country in the world, and that it is incapable of sustaining its current life style without the others. To put it in perspective, ignore me as an Englishman and listen to what your own former Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin is saying.

[Dark0ne]

I look forward to receiving a post card from you (anthrax free) from the "free lands" of Iraq as you go to support your fellow species against the evil, tyranous American nation...Shakkara. When can I expect to hear from you on this task?

[Shakkara]

Dark0ne apparantly likes to pop in to show he's totally ignorant when it comes down to understanding my points of view.

 

The people of Iraq have sufficient means to get rid of the US themselves, it's not my fault that they do not make use of them. And what if I'd go there and attack some yanks? Wouldn't that make me a hypocrite when you take my previous posts into account? You seem to have no clue at all what I'm going on about, do you, but rather use strawman tactics to make some childish and inane post.