US admits extreme 'interrogation' methods

[pharzon]

I am debating just as much as you are doing. Your "whining"-comment is hypocritical considering what you are doing yourself - which is exactly that: childish complaints against your oppositions points of view.

To debate something you have to have a standpoint and state this, which I am doing. I actually consider the fact that you are starting to bring definitions of whining and debate into the thread as if you have run out of arguments.

 

What the hell has the dutch media to do with anything? That the US are using torture - the actual topic of this discussion - is accepted in every media in every country. I'm not dutch myself so I have other sources than this article to be sure.

And if you consider the Danish media to be the provider of anti-American propaganda, I would be very surprised.

 

And to ignore my statement that what I said about the American interference in other countries only counted in in most cases is not going to help your arguments. I am, of course, aware that the US are planning to make Iraq a democratic country.

 

Regarding your last statement, I find that a resigned way to look at things. If you won't discuss or question actions that you find wrong, because you don't think that it help, then be my guest. I'm not going to do that, although I probably won't make any difference anyway..

 

pharzon..

[Dark0ne]

I am debating just as much as you are doing. Your "whining"-comment is hypocritical considering what you are doing yourself - which is exactly that: childish complaints against your oppositions points of view.

 

It is neither hypocritical or childish. I've put on no false demeanor. Maybe ironic was the word you were looking for? :rolleyes:

 

It seems you are not entirely up to speed with my stance - I've made no childish complaints against any opposition, simply because I've not opposed you at all - merely attempted to enlighten you to a more liberal stance of thinking on these matters.

 

Maybe you'd like to post what you think my stance is, so I can inevitably correct you? ^_^

 

What the hell has the dutch media to do with anything?

 

Maybe its to do with the thread - seeing as how it was the source of the starting quote?

 

What the hell has the dutch media to do with anything ... if you consider the Danish media

 

My, we are jumping around countries, aren't we? ;)

[pharzon]

Enlighten me? I beg your pardon, but I do think I'm quite up to the task of deciding my stance on this topic by myself, although the reason, of course, that I participate in this debate is to argue for my points and perhaps even understand things that I've been uncomprehending towards. ;)

My opinion is clear, but nonetheless I've heard all arguments from either side, so my stance is not taken lightly but is actually well-considered with basis in the opinions of both sides and my view of human nature in general.

 

Well, allow me to take a guess then: You are against the war in Iraq and you are against Bush. But you regard torture etc. as an unavoidable thing concerning war and can't understand, why the Americans are blamed more than other countries who use the arts of torture. Am I correct or even close?

 

I know this thread has its basis in an article from the Dutch media, but you accuse me of swallowing the Dutch media's words with no thought of the partiality.

That is why I stated that the news this article is bringing is well-known in lots and lots of other medias as well.

The reason I mentioned the Danish media is because I'm a Dane and therefore get much of my information through the Danish media. Therefore it is relevant whether or not the Danish media is anti-American (which it isn't).

Understand what I'm saying? :)

 

 

pharzon..

[Albareth]

I grow to live with the same thing - but I also accept the only way change will ever come is if the people who DO realize it talk of it, debate about it, inspire thinking about it, challenge people's believes.

 

Do you have any better alternative?

[Malchik]

Well I hope no one is accusing me of whining!

 

One major problem is that the western concept of democracy - imperfect though it still is - works reasonably well in those countries where it has developed over hundreds of years. However that is because society moved slowly towards it. Attempts to impose it on what are in principle tribal societies never work. The people have to get there themselves, and as in the history of western Europe, this is not always a smooth ride.

 

It is fundamentally unsound to try to put in place a government that does not reflect the way a country operates in practice. There are hundreds of examples that you can see throughout the world at the moment.

 

So the American wish to install a democratic government is not thought through.

 

At the end of the day however that is not what the thread is about. The thread is about the use of torture in defiance of the Geneva Convention to which the US is a signatory. No doubt they are not the only country that uses it but that is not a justification. That the extreme Iraqis are worse is not a justification either. You want the everyday people to feel that they would be safer and happier under a US style government. The piling up of naked bodies, rape and murder of prisoners is hardly likely to seem reassuring.

 

And there is no doubt that the UK has played its part in causing problems in the Middle East. However it was CIA money that armed Hussein when the US believed Iran was the bigger threat. He actually believed the US would support his invasion of Iran. And perhaps if he'd left Kuwait alone they would!

 

Apropos of Dark0ne's comments; I agree I can't do much about it but I will voice my protest at the short-sightedness of the current approach at every opportunity given to me (my anti-war poem is part of my performance at Chichester Cathedral on Saturday). Most on this forum are young and will be the movers an shakers of the future. If I can get even one person to think twice about making assumptions about the 'rightness' of democracy for all societies then it will have served a purpose.

 

Words may be an imperfect medium but it's all we have to work with and I don't believe it is whining.

[Darnoc]

@Malchik: Quite right, what you are saying there. Democracy is a matter of culture, society and developement. In Europe (and from Europe going to America) democracy developed. In other parts of this world, democracy runs against the culture (for example islamic culture, which doesn't support democracy but monarchy), the society (you can't put modern democracy in a tribal society) and the developement (democracy is only working in stable regions; in parts of the world where there is instability, a government of one person or a group is better, because then the instability can be controlled and stability can follow). So anyone who seriously thinks that you can adapt the european or american system in any other part of the world has left his brain somewhere, but it doesn't seem to be where it should.

 

Perhaps development doesn't mean automatically democracy. There may be developed countries with dictatorships, monarchies or with one ruling group, we will see. Good example there is Saudi Arabia which says "take the technology but leave culture and society of the west outside". Probably other nations will follow.

 

And perhaps we will even see that communism really works, because all the conditions are right in some place. One never knows... By the way, I am just reading "Das Kapital" and it is quite interesting. Marx was quite right in some parts. Everyone should read it (ok, not everyone, it is quite complex), we should again begin to criticise our own system.

[pharzon]

Once again, you're quite right, Malchik.

The only thing that annoys me about your post is that it says everything I would have said if I had thought about it. :P

 

And to Darnoc:

Of course we should, it is only by critisizing our system that we can change things.

 

 

 

pharzon..

[tyjet3]

I know you all are hardcore liberals (i can tell), but sometimes you do what you must to save lives... Yes, i agree that the way of punishment and interrogation in Iraq was bad, but remember that other countries have done much worse to our soldiers and our prisoners of war... no point in dwelling on it forever... it happens, lets just get the people that did it and punish them properly.

[Brighid]

lets just get the people that did it and punish them properly.

Amen. As thre is mounting evidence that the Bush administration authorized these methods, in violation of the Geneva Convention, Charge George W. Bush with war crimes, and send him off to the Hague.

Then I will consider getting over it.

 

Okay, this is intended to be taken as tongue-in-cheek, but seriously, there needs to be some serious penalties levied against the Bush administration for breaking treaties, to which they are signatories, again, and again.

 

No doubt they are not the only country that uses it but that is not a justification. That the extreme Iraqis are worse is not a justification either. You want the everyday people to feel that they would be safer and happier under a US style government. The piling up of naked bodies, rape and murder of prisoners is hardly likely to seem reassuring....

Apropos of Dark0ne's comments; I agree I can't do much about it but I will voice my protest at the short-sightedness of the current approach at every opportunity given to me

 

I also cannot do much, except to voice my protest at every opportunity, and I am also working dilligently to register voters in my county. If I can encourage even one person to get out on Nov. 2nd and get W. out of the White House, I will have done my part.

[Chunky_Moose]

I've only just decided to read this thread...

 

Has anyone read the book 'A New Power' by John Pilger? Its a pretty good book, an eye-opener..

 

Fun fact:

 

In pre-Gulf War Iraq, about a hundred people died from poverty daily. After the US blockade started on Iraq, that figure rose to 6000 deaths from starvation and poverty DAILY, to put that into context, the US inflicted upon Iraq two September 11ths every single day. A few tortured terrorists is humane by normal US standards...