Why you should join the Stormcloaks.

[LadyMilla]

Hammerfell didn't 'Beat back' the Domminion. They held a stalemate against a militarily devistated Domminion, which left the most densely populated regions of Hammerfel in a state of ruin. They did this by relying on Legionaires who had been 'discharged' for the sole purpose of holding Hammerfell at any cost.

 

The 'invalid' legionnaires helped the Redguard to defeat the armies of Lady Arannelya in 4E 174, 1 year before the White Gold Concordat. One year later the White Gold Concordat ceded the southern regions of Hammerfell to the Dominion, leading to the Hammerfell's secession from the Empire. There is no record of Imperial troops remaining in Hammerfell after the White Gold Concordat, in fact, I doubt that the Empire would have risked the freshly signed peace treaty by doing something that the Dominion could use an excuse to resume the war. Mede even renounced Hammerfell, just to save the treaty so I have no doubt that those 'invalids' were recalled.

 

Now, first, Thalmor doccuments indicate that they maintained semi regular contact with Ulfric until just after the Markarth incedent. Whether he was a willing participant or an unwitting stooge is irrelivent, that there was contact, and that his actions work in line with Domminion makes him suspect.

 

Even if Ulfric unwittingly accepted support from them, it does not make him an ally of the Thalmor. The US indirectly backed the precursors of the Taliban in Afghanistan against the Soviet forces, still that did not make those Islamist cells or the Taliban a US ally (as a matter of fact, supporting them even indirectly pretty much backfired in the long run).

 

Second, the Empire COULD put down the rebellion with ease. Both Rikke and Tullius say as much. The problem is, the Legion won't even commit an actual army, forcing Tullius to recruit locally. Why? Again, because the real Legions are on the Domminion border, preparing for another war.

 

Skyrim is an important province, the resistance of the inhabitants against magic and their hatred against the Elves make them ideal soldiers against Elves, their craftsmanship and weapons are well known, their mineral resources are invaluable. The Empire cannot afford losing Skyrim (and its natural and human resources). Apparently, the Emperor knows that Skyrim is important, this is why he chooses to visit the province during the DB questline... still he does not send reinforcements. This means only one thing: the Empire is weak. At the beginning of the Civil War, the Empire controls more locations. Given the fact that Tullius does not receive reinforcements and he is forced to give up the eastern holds it seems that the Ulfric rebellion is more than a match for the local Imperial forces. The Stormcloak rebellion grew out of the Markarth Incident that happened 25 years before the events in the game. 25 years!!! If the Empire could not boost the number of its troops sufficiently during a period of 25 years to send reinforcements to Skyrim and snip a slowly spreading rebellion in the bud, considering the importance of the province, then the Empire is seriously mismanaged.

 

Finally, the emotional response to Helgen is appropriate, but determining right and wrong, valid and invalid through emotional impulse is a terrible way to base an arguement.

 

Not quite. Good story tellers know how important first impressions are. On the carriage that is taking the captives to Helgen Rolof remembers how Imperial towers used to make him feel secure. I'm sure that the irony of the situation is meant to send a message: in Morrowind and in Oblivion it was the Empire's agents who set you free. In Skyrim, the Empire wants you dead.

 

 

[Lachdonin]

First, you are correct. After rechecking the sources there is no indication of the involvement of the discharged Legionaries involvement past 4E174. It does, however, state that the only reason Hammerfell was able to stand against the Domminion was because the Battle of the Red Ring, and the Empire, had devistated their military.

 

Second, i never said he was an ally, at least not in a willing way. At the same time, one can consider a favorable battlefield to be an ally, despite its total lack of agency. Whatever his intent, we do know that Ulfric has been in contact with the Thalmor until just after the Markarth incedent, when he became 'uncooperative'.

 

Third, your are arguing based on a false premise. You assume that the fact the Empire doesn't commit more resources is proof that it is weak. However, you totally ignore the fact that both the Empire and the Domminion expect a second war, and the Empire's forces on the Domminions borders indicate that they clearly are more interested in the threat the Domminion poses. It shows the beleif that the Empire sees the civil war as a destraction, something caused by a few passionate and short sighted fools, and totally trusts Tullius's capabilities to put it down. Whether they understand the reality of Tullius's possition or not isn't a sign of weakness, but of different priorities. Until information is released about a Post-Civil War Skyrim, you have no evidence in the least to support the claim of Imperial weakness.

 

Fourth, you are aware that you are arguing against the foundation of critial thinking and rationality? First impressions are typically emotional and based on highly limited, subjective information. They are universally inferior to informed decisions. It is good stroy telling that makes one elicit an instantaneous reaction to a situation, but it's even better story telling that supplies enough information that makes you question your gut reaction, and pushes you to explore the circumstances to understand more. Skyrim, for all its abrupt storylines, does this masterfully.

 

As for Oblivion, you and i have very different memories of that intro sequence. I remember being told to follow, but if i so much as look at someone wrong the Blades will kill me on the spot... Considering how Oblivion is the game that portrays the Empire in its most altruisitc light, it jsut further argues against your support of first impressions.

[AnimeOtaku102]

 

That's only your belief based on a book written by... guess what... a Thalmor, identifying Ulfric as an "asset". A rebel leader who weakens the Empire is a natural asset for the Thalmor even if there is no direct contact between them.

You may have a point if the dossier was a widely circulated piece of propaganda, but it isn't. It's a piece of internal document used by the Thalmor for their operations in Skyrim, there is no reason to believe anything written in it is untrue. Fact is during Ulfric's contact with the Thalmor a major event happened (in which Ulfric was directly involved) that was in both party's favor (Ulfric used it as his religious soapbox, the Thalmor used it as pretense to enforce the treaty by sending in their inquisitors and forcing the Empire to divert a legion into Skyrim) - at worst this means he was an agent, at best it means he sacrificed his countrymen for his own ambitions without caring for how it benefited the Thalmor.

 

That doesn't mean he's an ally of the Thalmor now, but it does mean much of Ulfric's public image is a lie. Like Liala Law-Giver tells you, his cause is just, but she isn't sure of the man himself.

 

I think history is proof enough that just causes lead by corrupt men don't lead to happy endings.

[jhncanson]

INow that you mentioned hammerfell, i just noticed in my game.. guards are often commenting about mercenaries from hammerfell strutting about.

 

Now on first thought, it was because of the quest of the redguard woman, but that was long done.. i havent heard these kinds of comments from guards since my skyrim update 1.8,

now if i finished the quest, wouldnt they be long gone.. specially that i murdered their leader who came to skyrim in whiterun stables just to loot his awesome scimitars. I dont know if anyone noticed this or maybe its because i ate a lot last night(new year celebration) to the point that im suspicious even to the slightest happening.. I mean, this could be a signal for any hammerfell helping skyrim to escape from the grips of the thalmor DLC? or im just being suspicious. This would be another alternative leading to the Civil War conclusion.

[LadyMilla]

 

Third, your are arguing based on a false premise. You assume that the fact the Empire doesn't commit more resources is proof that it is weak. However, you totally ignore the fact that both the Empire and the Domminion expect a second war, and the Empire's forces on the Domminions borders indicate that they clearly are more interested in the threat the Domminion poses. It shows the beleif that the Empire sees the civil war as a destraction, something caused by a few passionate and short sighted fools, and totally trusts Tullius's capabilities to put it down. Whether they understand the reality of Tullius's possition or not isn't a sign of weakness, but of different priorities. Until information is released about a Post-Civil War Skyrim, you have no evidence in the least to support the claim of Imperial weakness.

 

You try to argue against the simple logic of resource management and military strategy. Although I do not claim to be an expert it is evident, even for a layman, that an Empire that prepares for war cannot afford the luxury of tolerating a potential destabilizing factor in the backyard, especially if the backyard is as important in terms of manpower and natural resources as Skyrim. Ulfric became a powerful rebel rebel leader during a period of 25 years, and during this period he was not just ignored, but he was also able to effectively claim the eastern holds. If that does not set off the alarm at the Imperial high command and raise questions about the competence of the local military commander then they fully deserve to lose Skyrim. This is all the evidence you need to see the Empire's shortsightedness, which, in a situation like the one the Empire is facing, is a potentially fatal weakness.

 

Fourth, you are aware that you are arguing against the foundation of critial thinking and rationality? First impressions are typically emotional and based on highly limited, subjective information. They are universally inferior to informed decisions. It is good stroy telling that makes one elicit an instantaneous reaction to a situation, but it's even better story telling that supplies enough information that makes you question your gut reaction, and pushes you to explore the circumstances to understand more. Skyrim, for all its abrupt storylines, does this masterfully.

 

Skyrim is a game that is meant to entertain by setting up basic conflicts and sending simple messages based on real life templates (Imperials = Romans, Nord = Vikings/Nordic tribes, etc). Bethesda really excels at delivering a rich background without relinquishing control over the future of the Elder Scrolls storyline: they simply do not give us enough clues to predict, using logic and reasoning, how they will shape the story of the next installment in the series. For this reason, going by emotional messages and impressions is no less valid than sticking to logic and speculation based on sometimes cherry-picked bits of lore: for me, the Empire in Skyrim lost its backbone. It gave up the religion centered around the worship of the founder of the Empire. It must have been an insult to the Nords the magnitude of which is comparable to forcing a Catholic to disavow one of the basic tenets of his or her faith that Jesus is both God and Man. The Empire also allows the agents of its sworn enemy to roam its lands freely. The bloodline of the dragon-born emperors is broken. Black Marsh is lost, Elsweyr is lost, Hammerfell seceded, Morrowind is destroyed and its southern part is conquered by the Argonians. The ancient conflict between men and elves (Alessia vs Ayleids) is rearing its head again but this time the only one who carries the blessing of Akatosh is the Dragonborn, and he (or she) is free to choose between the Empire and the Stormcloaks. Is Ulfric really worse or better than Titus Mede II? Should we condemn him as an opportunist who craves for nothing but power without stepping back and considering that probably Julius Caesar was also regarded as a power hungry tyrant before he was credited for establishing a new order that stabilized the Roman Empire? I believe that the Empire will reborn in some form - after all, in Skyrim rebirth seems to be a major theme: the rebirth of the Dark Broderhood, the dragons, the Thieves Guild, the Gildergreen, Potema (even though she fails to return) - but it is impossible to tell, based on the lore, if it is Ulfric or Titus Mede II or a third player who is destined to revive the Empire. Any arguments for or against the Empire or the Stormcloaks can be easily countered because the available lore contains wide gaps that allow Bethesda to close the story as they wish.

 

As to your comment on the introductory scene of Oblivion: I think under the circumstances you cannot blame the Blades for treating you with suspicion. After all, you were an unknown factor, the prudent course of action would have been to stick a sword in your chest in case you were sleeper agent of the Mythic Dawn: your presence in the cell surprised them as the cell was supposed to be empty.

[bjeet]

LadyMilla wrote -

 

"You try to argue against the simple logic of resource management and military strategy. Although I do not claim to be an expert it is evident, even for a layman, that an Empire that prepares for war cannot afford the luxury of tolerating a potential destabilizing factor in the backyard, especially if the backyard is as important in terms of manpower and natural resources as Skyrim. Ulfric became a powerful rebel rebel leader during a period of 25 years, and during this period he was not just ignored, but he was also able to effectively claim the eastern holds. If that does not set off the alarm at the Imperial high command and raise questions about the competence of the local military commander then they fully deserve to lose Skyrim. This is all the evidence you need to see the Empire's shortsightedness, which, in a situation like the one the Empire is facing, is a potentially fatal weakness."

 

It is easy make decisions when you are distant and detached from the conflict. The United States had the Taliban on the run in 2002-2003 and for a moment I felt maybe it was possible to win in Afghanistan afterall. But then they shifted their focus to Iraq and the Taliban regrouped, recruited and rearmed and now they can strike at will anywhere in Afghanistan. It doesn't mean the US Military is weak but the political and military environment in which they were (and still are) having to operate pretty much out rules a military victory. Their is also a term called "fog of war", the actors of any conflict have to operate and make decisions in an environment of uncertainty.

" War is an area of uncertainty; three quarters of the things on which all action in War is based are lying in a fog of uncertainty to a greater or lesser extent. The first thing (needed) here is a fine, piercing mind, to feel out the truth with the measure of its judgment."

Carl von Clausewitz

 

Everyone agress that the Thalmor are the real enemy. So the argument here is can Ulfric Stormcloak penetrate the "fog of war" better than Emperor Titus Mede II and his generals. Its like Markarth Incident versus Battle of the Red Ring - take your pick.

Edited January 1, 2013 by bjeet

[jhncanson]

LadyMilla wrote -

 

"You try to argue against the simple logic of resource management and military strategy. Although I do not claim to be an expert it is evident, even for a layman, that an Empire that prepares for war cannot afford the luxury of tolerating a potential destabilizing factor in the backyard, especially if the backyard is as important in terms of manpower and natural resources as Skyrim. Ulfric became a powerful rebel rebel leader during a period of 25 years, and during this period he was not just ignored, but he was also able to effectively claim the eastern holds. If that does not set off the alarm at the Imperial high command and raise questions about the competence of the local military commander then they fully deserve to lose Skyrim. This is all the evidence you need to see the Empire's shortsightedness, which, in a situation like the one the Empire is facing, is a potentially fatal weakness."

 

It is easy make decisions when you are distant and detached from the conflict. The United States had the Taliban on the run in 2002-2003 and for a moment I felt maybe it is possible to win in Afghanistan afterall. But they shifted their focus to Iraq and the Taliban regrouped, recruited and rearmed and now they can strike at will anywhere in Afghanistan. It doesn't mean the US Military is weak but the political and military environment in which they were having to operate pretty much made a military victory impossible. Their is also a term called "fog of war", the actors have to operate and make decisions in an environment of uncertainty.

" War is an area of uncertainty; three quarters of the things on which all action in War is based are lying in a fog of uncertainty to a greater or lesser extent. The first thing (needed) here is a fine, piercing mind, to feel out the truth with the measure of its judgment."

Carl von Clausewitz

 

Everyone agress that the Thalmor are the real enemy. So the argument here is can Ulfric Stormcloak penetrate the "fog of war" better than Emperor Titus Mede II and his generals. Its like Markarth Incident versus Battle of the Red Ring - take your pick.

 

 

I believe Emperor Titus Mede II is dead. That's is if you chose the path of the dark brotherhood.. where in you get to assassinate the emperor.. Now that still depend if bethesda will include that in the lore of Elder Scrolls. Given that his death has no effect on Civil War Questline.

Edited January 1, 2013 by jhncanson

[LadyMilla]

It is easy make decisions when you are distant and detached from the conflict. The United States had the Taliban on the run in 2002-2003 and for a moment I felt maybe it was possible to win in Afghanistan afterall. But then they shifted their focus to Iraq and the Taliban regrouped, recruited and rearmed and now they can strike at will anywhere in Afghanistan. It doesn't mean the US Military is weak but the political and military environment in which they were (and still are) having to operate pretty much out rules a military victory. Their is also a term called "fog of war", the actors of any conflict have to operate and make decisions in an environment of uncertainty.

" War is an area of uncertainty; three quarters of the things on which all action in War is based are lying in a fog of uncertainty to a greater or lesser extent. The first thing (needed) here is a fine, piercing mind, to feel out the truth with the measure of its judgment."

Carl von Clausewitz

 

Everyone agress that the Thalmor are the real enemy. So the argument here is can Ulfric Stormcloak penetrate the "fog of war" better than Emperor Titus Mede II and his generals. Its like Markarth Incident versus Battle of the Red Ring - take your pick.

 

In terms of "fog of war", Skyrim may be Afghanistan for the Thalmor but definitely not for the Empire. If Titus Mede II did not known what was transpiring in Black Marsh or in Elsweyr that would be understandable. But in this case it is more like as if the US did not know what was going on in Oregon or Florida. As a member of the Empire, Skyrim is Titus Mede II's major source of silver, iron and other minerals, and manpower and unless Mede is a lousy strategist, he will realize the importance of securing these resources at all costs if he is to win a war against the Dominion. This does not require intelligence information.

 

There are a few things that I would like to emphasize:

 

- Unpredictability:

Bethesda ensured that fate would play a key role in the story. Let's give General Tullius credit for cleverly staging an ambush and capturing Ulfric. I even acknowledge that this fact does not reflect on the strength of the local Imperial forces as even the strongest army will use 'blitz' / clandestine operations to capture targets of opportunity (although a weak military force may also resort to such tactics out of pure necessity as they are unable to secure victory in open battle). The rebellion is basically over, the headsman just needs to swing his axe (the Imperial gunner needs to pull the firing lever on the Death Star), and 'kabooom', there comes the 'deus ex machina', a dragon (the Millenium Falcon) appears out of thin air and levels the playing field (both literally and figuratively). Ulfric and the Dragonborn escapes (Luke is free to fire his torpedoes without further distractions), and the game is on again.

 

This means that you can speculate as much as you want, Bethesda is ready to remind you that they are the ultimate deity who writes the Elder Scrolls. If they want the Empire or Ulfric to fall, the books in the next TES game will fill in the gaps in our current knowledge in such a way that they will support and justify the outcome chosen by Bethesda.

 

- Patterns and analogies introduced from the history of Earth:

I do not think I really need to point at the obvious analogies and patterns from our own history and cultures (Roman uniforms and names, Nordic/Viking references, a certain degree of similarity with the situation during the German occupation of France (Thalmor= Gestapo)). However, Bethesda is careful enough to ensure that the similarities do not introduce predictability. They use patterns, but they deviate from them at will before they are locked into that pattern.

 

- Reliability of in-game resources:

I do not believe that, depending on the subject and the nationality of the author, the in-game books are more reliable than, let say, The History of Rome written by Titus Livius. Imperial authors will glorify the Empire, Nord authors will glorify the virtues of the Nords and so on and they might agree on neutral subjects. Since you should treat those works with a pinch of salt, theories built on them will rely on a distorted view of the events and circumstances. The same is true of anything that the in-game characters say. Everything has multiple explanations and any of those explanations can be validated later by Bethesda.

 

- Cultures should be judged according to the in-game cultural standards, and not according to the modern views;

Modern views on slavery and racism make certain choices in Skyrim distasteful. However,slavery was an accepted practice among the Dunmer, and racism was justified (at least in the eyes of the Nords) according to the Nords' past and current experience with the Elves. You do not have to approve of those standards, you should merely use them as a yardstick.

 

On a final note: yes, everyone agrees that the Thalmor is the real enemy. But depending on whether or not you regard the assassination of Titus Mede II as canon (if you do, the interregnum will surely destabilize the Empire with the Thalmor probably attempting to support an aspirant to the throne who is seen as an 'asset' in the context of their long-term plans) and whether you chose the Empire or the Stormcloaks the number of possible outcomes will sky rocket, and even then Bethesda may simply opt to use the 'deus ex machina' (Akaviri invasion, return of the Dwemer, a sudden revelation that the Thalmor made a pact with the invading Daedra to finish what Mehrunes Dagon started and so on) and leave you scratching your head.

 

So, in my opinion, you can pick any of the factions, you can theorize or simply act on instinct, you cannot go wrong. (Unless Bethesda thinks it is wise to annoy half of the player base: I saw a few Empire vs Stormcloak polls and almost all of them were very close to 50/50 percent).

[Tzontlimixtli]

While the Stormcloaks' reasoning for rebellion is a "fair" one, doing so when the trade and protection they get from the Empire while the Aldmeri dominion is at its height of power just seems a little off to me.

[Giagun]

I would like to know if anyone thinks the Empire could just fall and go away since it has been such a key part to the series over the years. Especially since the new Elder Scrolls Online game has no Imperials at all.