Long War mod discussion

[sorkin5]

I've been playing the mod for a week or so now, and I'd like to say thanks for doing this. I like the overall feel much better than vanilla. I have some thoughts on it, since you have asked for feedback. In its current form I like it better than vanilla, these are just observations I've had and parts I've had extra trouble with.

 

The increased research time and increased number of alien encounters combine to make research feel a lot more meaningful. If I pick project A before B it means I'll have to fight 10+ battles without B instead of 1 or 2 or maybe none in vanilla.

 

I also really like the changes (at least the ones I've seen so far) you've made to the perk system.

 

The interceptors are intersesting too. My first game I had my base in Europe, since the description of the mod said Labs would be much more critical. I only bought 1 extra interceptor, and lost my base country and only satellite in the first month and a half because I didn't have interceptors to send up against the ufo's, and after 3 ignores I lost the game.

 

The second game I made my base in North America and bought 2 more interceptors (which cost $150 with "Air and Space" and $200 elsewhere though the description at the beginning of this thread says they cost $100 base. I was able to go after all but one of the UFOs, but out of 7 UFOs I detected, I was only able to shoot down 1. It looks like you get 3 shots, and have to hit with all 3 shots in order to shoot down the UFO. I got an "F" for that first month, even though the escaped UFOs were the only things in red. The sectoid autopsy (for the AIM consumable) was going to take me 28 days to research, and I thought I was losing the game because I couldn't shoot anything down, so I restarted as a S. America base for the instant autopsies. However, in that game, even with AIM, my interceptors still went 0 for 3 before I abandoned that strategy.

 

This really frustrated me initially, but now I'm starting to come to the opinion that it's a good mechanic. They have super alien technology, and our crappy jets stand no chance other than to chase off their scouts unless they get really really lucky. Hopefully, after a year of research and study of their technology, we'll be able to build jets (firestorms) that can actually shoot their UFOs down reliably. This works so long as actually shooting down their UFOs isn't required early on. I do think that it shouldn't require quite so much of your resources to do though. 4 jets at $200 each plus $200/month upkeep on each continent that you have a satellite over is excessive. Maybe make the jets cost less but the firestorms more or something.

 

I will say this about the mod overall...man is it HARD! The description says it's recommended to play in impossible, and will work in classic, but not so much on easy/normal, so I started in classic. I'm 10 games in and have yet to get past the first couple of months before feeling like I'm screwed with no chance to win. No money, nothing but recruits who get wiped every mission. Maybe I'm just not a very good player, but I did complete impossible level on vanilla several times with ironman turned on (as always), so I'm not a total newbie.

 

Sectoids seem pretty good. They aren't quite as dangerous as in vanilla, but they will still light you up if you make a mistake or activate a second squad of them while engaging the first. If anything I get irritated when I rip a clip from an automatic rifle into a little squishy grey thing at point blank range and he survives it and blows me, in my full body armor, away the next turn.

 

Thin men are really killers though. They are only supposed to be one step up from Sectoids, but they have 2 more HPs which make them unable to be killed by a grenade, or a rifle, have that poison which makes your soldiers unable to hit the broad side of a barn, and increased accuracy on top of all of that. They might need a little toning down considering there are more of them per mission now.

 

Floaters seem okay.

 

Buffing Overseers to be a mini-boss is a good idea, but I think they're probably a bit overtuned right now. With 5 HPs, they're potential 1 shot kills with a rocket or an assault with a shotgun and run and gun available, each of which have a realistic chance of being in range when it activates. With 10 though, they routinely wipe my entire squad. 7 might be better. You might also consider lowering the number of aliens in the ship missions for the smaller craft. For most missions you've balanced reduced alien effectiveness with more aliens, but for ship missions you could balance reduced sectoid effectiveness with the greater overseer effectiveness. You really have to have all 4 of your squad members available and ready to take on an overseer, and even then he often takes out at least one of my squad.

 

I agree with the poster above that recommended that panic (in mission) be toned down as well. I realize it's the same as vanilla, but it's just silly to see 3 soldiers panic and become useless because one of them gets clipped in the arm for 2 HPs, resulting in the whole squad wiping...which is what happened to me a few minutes ago. I can understand the soldier that got hit, but not his buddies. It's kind of cheesy, and difficult for the player to control.

 

Lastly, I love the idea of having to kind of choose your battles, and be willing to retreat from a battle to save your soldiers without it causing you to lose the entire game, as it often would in vanilla. However, 2 things currently still prevent this from working. First, every battle I've considered retreating from, has been on a map without a blue extraction square. It seems like some maps have them and some don't. Is there anyway to make extraction possible on every map? Second is the panic thing again. I activate another pocket of thin men while trying to engage the first and suddenly it's 6 thin men against my corporal, squaddie x2, and recruit, most of them already damaged, and I know I'm screwed. I want to pull everyone I can out, but the first round they kill one of my squaddies, and that panics 2 more, which are then easily dispatched the next round, which panics the last one and that's it.

 

Anyway, overall I like the direction your mod is going.

 

Is anyone else able to get very far in the current version without save/reload when something goes wrong cheesiness? If so, any tips?

[johnnylump]

This is an excellent post with some great feedback. Thank you. I'm glad you're finding it challenging and fun.

 

A few thoughts (not responding to everything, yet):

 

* Interceptor battles. Something I added in 1.05 and thought was working may in fact not be working correctly (specifically, randomization of weapons damage), and that may be making the interception game harder than intended. Ideally, Avalanches should *sometimes* be able to down a small scout in two hits, but I'm noticing it may always be three, which tells me the randomizer isn't working like it should. If you can, let me know if that's your experience, or if you're getting them with two Avalanches sometimes.

 

(The nuts and bolts: A small scout has 800 hit points. An Avalanche is supposed to to 300+random (200) per hit, so it should sometimes take two hits and sometimes three to kill an SS. If it's only doing 300 a hit then it will always take three.)

 

* I haven't updated the start of this thread with version updates; thanks for the reminder I should do that.

 

* Version 1.06 will change the satellite hunter mechanic. You won't draw one every time you fail to intercept a UFO. But you will sometimes draw one when you engage a UFO but fail to shoot down (which is new).

 

* Don't worry about your monthly grades; they're just window dressing. I think there's a way I could discount the effects of missed UFOs, if they make you feel bad. :) Not high-priority as no gameplay effects that "m aware of.

 

* The missing blue extraction square is a vanilla bug. Save your mission and reload, and it will re-appear next to your start area on most maps. However, on at least one map (a landed scout mission), that still doesn't work. (When that happens, I think it's forgivable to lower the difficulty to normal or easy for the duration of the mission, especially when it contains 10 mutons).

 

Tips:

 

* You know your guys can carry two items with non-specialty armors, correct? NF-Vests are a big help. And early on with outsiders, I suggest explosives as the way to go. Four grenades, 1 from each squaddie. But you have to be careful about when you set off the outsider. Suppressing them is a useful tactic if you can't hit them with everything at once.

 

* Shooting down UFOs isn't required in the sense of hurting your chances of near-term survival. You do need to engage them, though, to avoid the panic hit from an ignored UFO, but it's OK to flee. Instead, they provide critical resources (alloys, elerium and cash from parts) that enable you to improve your gear. When I'm out of working interceptors, I sell everything but alloys to get a new one. Don't be afraid to drop one if you are desperate.

 

* Out of the gate, build a spare satellite, so it's ready at the end of the month. If you've got it, it's not the end of the world if you lose your sat over your starting country; you'll just go a couple of weeks without being able to intercept UFOs. But as I noted, this will be less common in the next version.

 

In 1.06, I'm playing with increasing starting cash but lowering "base" (non-country generated) monthly income, to giving you more starting options and make satellites more important. I'm also looking at country panic; considering eliminating panic reduction for either UFO assaults or defeating abductions (and possibly reducing damage from undefeated abductions to compensate).

Edited February 25, 2013 by johnnylump

[sorkin5]

I'll watch the interceptors more closely. I know that I used 3 AIM pods which automatically cause the next 2 shots to hit, and in none of the 3 engagements did I shoot down the scout. That's not a very large sample size though. And to be honest, the interceptor hit rate is so low, I doubt I even get 2 hits very often without the AIM.

 

I'm not really sure putting in a chance to lose your sat to an escaped UFO is a very good idea right now though...unless you can code it so it doesn't start until six months in or something. As it stands, there's not very much you can do at least in the first few months to start dropping those UFOs reliably. It's not like you chose to concentrate on ground research/gear so now you're losing satellites. Even if you start off with xeno-biology and sectoid autopsy for the AIM, once you figure in the AIM production time you're looking at a month and a half to two months before you have AIM available to help you out, and even with that...well I went 0 for 3, but with the numbers you provided maybe I just got unlucky and my pilots sucked on the third shot.

 

In any case, even if you completely prioritze interceptors with both research and expenditure, you're looking at watching 10-14 UFOs escape in the first two months alone. $400 for a couple more jets, and another $100/month in maintenance on them is required. There's already enough incentive to prioritize interceptors now just by watching all that elerium/alloys/flight computers/power sources fly away without them also having to replace satellites even if they're able to throw a jet at every UFO. Plus, it kind of makes sense if you leave it totally alone for it to track down the right satellite, but if it's getting chased off by an interceptor, that should save your satellite. It might make sense to have a chance to lose them if your jet gets shot down or aborts though.

 

And no I didn't realize there were 2 slots in the standard armor. I thought that started with carapace for some reason. Having an extra grenade per squad member will help a lot. Nano-Fibre vests might be worth looking into as a first research item too, but then you delay being able to shoot down any UFOs that much longer. Hrmm.

[johnnylump]

I just ran a test and the damage randomizer does in fact work -- I dropped some UFOs with two Avalanches, and some with three.

 

Avalanches have a base 50% to hit, by the way, and two Avalanches should drop a small UFO half the time; other times it will take three. Yes, you only get three shots before it escapes the combat, but usually you can send two interceptors after a single small UFO before it escapes the strategic map, though. (You know you can launch more fighters by clicking the "UFO-x" alert above the globe, right?) I started a new game last night and got four out of the five small UFOs in March, and all four required three Avalanches, so it's certainly possible to have some success against them.

 

The reason that escaped UFOs need to sometimes generate satellite hunters is that there's an otherwise gamey method of protecting your satellites -- send up an interceptor, exchange one shot with the UFO, and then abort with little or no damage. The UFO counts as "escaped" and there's never any risk to your satellites.

 

The new mechanism will be this: Any ignored or escaped scout or battleship UFOs (not abductors, barges or the overseer) have a chance to generate a hunter. It's 30 percent for small scouts, 40 percent for large scouts and 90 percent for battleships. If generated, the UFO will have roughly 1 in 3 chance to shoot down your satellite if not intercepted. Yep, you can have some bad luck and lose your satellite, but it's a sort of risk-reward whether you've prepared another one ready to go.

 

 

For the first 10 months, the hunter will be a large scout; after that it's a battleship. It can take up to 10 days to appear (giving you time to recruit or move interceptors).

Compare to vanilla: Any ignored scout, abductor or supply vessel will have a 100% chance of generating a hunter that appears within five days, and that ship has a 100% chance of shooting down a non-stealth satellite. And the hunters are battleships much earlier in the game.

[sorkin5]

I'm going to retract a lot of what I said about difficulty.

 

You're right, I didn't realize you could intercept with more than 1 interceptor. I tried several times on vanilla on the few occasions that my interceptor didn't take out the UFO in the first pass and I had more than 1 interceptor on the continent (in vanilla you didn't really need more than 1), and both times the UFO just left the geoscape before my second jet could chase it down. I wrongly assumed that, like the single skyranger, you were only supposed to get 1 chance to shoot down a bogey.

 

Now with 2 interceptors, the second typically shoots down the UFO with little or no damage, making successful interceptions much more likely, so long as you have 2 interceptors armed and ready. I still let go any UFOs which avoid all the missiles from my first jet, but the rest I've been downing. This really increases income. Also, the one UFO I downed in a single pass was a hit, miss, hit, so the randomizer does seem to work.

 

The 2 slots in the armor also make a huge difference in tactical play. Being able to engage the overseer with a full compliment of grenades has made a big difference.

 

I guess it was just a failure to understand a couple key mechanics/differences from vanilla that made it so hard. /thumbs up. I'm going to spend some more time with it and see how things pan out with the harder aliens.

[johnnylump]

Posted a beta of v.1.06. Feeback is welcome! Here's the changelog:

 

 

- Defeating Abductions no longer reduces panic; you are simply holding the line against things getting worse. The only ways to reduce panic are successful UFO assaults, orbiting satellites, success on terror and council missions, and defeating the alien base.

- Engaging but not shooting down certain UFOs will no longer prevent a hunter UFO from spawning. Abductors, Supply Barges and the Overseer will not spawn hunters, but other craft sometimes (but no longer always) will. You'll have a better chance at a fair fight with a hunter. Aliens chances' of shooting down your satellites altered.

- Experience bonus to interceptor to-hit based on kills increased.

- Interceptor weapon to-hit and in a few cases damage re-vamped. A number of powerful weapons will now only reach their full effectiveness in the hands of experienced interceptor pilots, while other weapons are better suited for rookies trying to reach veteran status.

- Interceptor repair time marginally reduced.

- Perks reordered for all classes.

- Late in the game sectoid commanders and ethereals will appear on missions outside of ship command crews.

- Late in the game chrysallids should show up a little more often.

- Base monthly funding significantly reduced; starting cash increased moderately. More income from satellites should be necessary.

- Raised XP requirements for lieutenants and above.

- Crashed Small Scout alien survivors randomized. There will probably be a few more survivors on average.

- Increased costs of Alien Grenades and Stealth Satellites foundry projects.

- Made a number of late-game weapons and armors more expensive, particularly Plasma Sniper Rifles.

- Increased Heavy Laser project requirements slightly.

- Snipers now gain hit points only at Lieutenant and Colonel, instead of at Corporal, Lieutenant and Major.

- Completed terror mission panic reduction bonus lowered.

- Lowered autopsy time for Sectoid, Thin Man and Floater.

- Increased some OTS project costs.

- Reduced alloy rewards from larger UFOs.

- Reduced lab bonus to vanilla.

- Floaters increased to 5 hp.

- Reduced sale prices of UFO Power Sources, Navs, and many alien corpses.

- Cash rewards for item "quests" eliminated; you should now receive personnel instead.

- Increased autopsy requirements to multiple bodies for most aliens.

- Buffed sectoid commanders a bit.

Here's the new perk layout:

- Perk Trees:

Assault

Squaddie: Run and Gun

Corporal: Gunslinger* or Bring 'Em On

Sergeant: Tactical Sense or Killer Instinct

Lieutenant: Rapid Fire or Lightning Reflexes

Captain: Close and Personal or Close Combat Specialist

Major: Extra Conditioning

Colonel: Resilience or Sprint*

Support

Squaddie: Smoke Grenade

Corporal: Field Medic or Sprint

Sergeant: Revive or Covering Fire

Lieutenant: Smoke and Mirrors or Battlescanner*

Captain: Dense Smoke or Rifle Suppression

Major: Low Profile*

Colonel: Savior or Sentinel

Sniper

Squaddie: Squadsight

Corporal: Executioner or Damn Good Ground

Sergeant: Holo-Targeting* or Head Shot

Lieutenant: Flush* or Disabling Shot

Captain: Snap Shot or Opportunist

Major: Low Profile

Colonel: In the Zone or Double Tap

Heavy

Squaddie: Fire Rocket

Corporal: Suppression or Aggression*

Sergeant: Bullet Swarm or Shredder Rocket

Lieutenant: Rapid Reaction or Grenadier

Captain: HEAT Ammo or Danger Zone

Major: Will to Survive

Colonel: Rocketeer or Mayhem

* Perks from another class.

Edit: Changed my mind on some perks shortly after uploading, so this is the 1.06b2 version.

Edited March 2, 2013 by johnnylump

[Kaerar]

Very interesting mod. I've been away from XCOM for a while, good to see some active and good quality mods still going, especially when Warspace isn't your cup of tea :D

 

Currently running YAXO (which for all intents and purposes is very similar to this, minus the long bit!). Will give this a go asap ;)

[johnnylump]

Long War 1.06 beta 3 is available in the files section.

The main new feature is alien UFO progression; that is, several alien ships will ramp up in capability over time, pushing you to concentrate on your interceptor game. Also trying to bring satellites back up in importance for your income by increasing maintenance costs on a number of facilities.

Perks also got another overhaul.

As always, feedback is welcome!

Here's the changelog since beta 2:

- Sectoids increased to 4 hp; Mutons increased to 12 hp. (Impossible Only)
- Assigned X-Com HQ a third interceptor from the start.
- Certain UFOs will get tougher as the game progresses.
- Reduced starting cash.
- Increased Alloy requirements for several items and facilities
- Increased base cost, power and/or maintenance costs for many facilities. Late-game special facilities have significantly increased requirements.
- Increased requirements for Arc Thrower, Base Shard, Hyperwave and PsiLink research.
- Increased requirements for Skeleton Key construction.
- Avalanches do a little more damage.
- Phoenix Cannon is more accurate but does less damage, making it more suitable for rookie pilots.
- Laser Cannon less accurate but does more damage, making it more suitable for somewhat experienced pilots.
- Made Alien Base defenders tougher.
- Alloy reward from base mission reduced.
- Increased variance for elerium rewards from destroyed UFO power cells.
- Having a satellite will no longer have a chance to lower panic each month if panic is less than 5 blocks. At 5 blocks, it remains a 50/50 chance it will go down. Satellites can bring you back from the brink, but they won't steadily lower panic.
- Elerium and UFO Power Source price reduced.
- Buffed sectoid commanders a bit more.
- Perks overhauled yet again.
- Support gains a mobility point at squaddie, sergeant and captain. (replacing sprint).
- Support gains 5 defense at major (enhancing tactical sense bonus).
- Assault gains 5 defense at corporal, 5 defense at captain (making up for tactical sense).
- All shotguns will not fire a reaction shot until an enemy is within 8 tiles.
- Pistols now have ammo and require reloading when emptied.
- Reduce armor penetration of UFO Plasma Cannon II, making it less effective against Firestorms.

 

New perk tree:

Support
Smoke Grenade
Field Medic or Opportunist
Revive or Covering Fire
Smoke and Mirrors or Battle Scanner
Dense Smoke or Rifle Suppression
Tactical Sense
Savior or Sentinel

Assault
Run and Gun
Gunslinger or Bring 'Em On
Killer Instinct or Grenadier
Rapid Fire or Lightning Reflexes
Close and Personal or Close Combat Specialist
Extra Conditioning
Resilience or Sprint

Sniper
Squaddie: Squadsight
Corporal: Executioner or Damn Good Ground
Sergeant: Gunslinger or Rapid Reaction
Lieutenant: Flush* or Disabling Shot
Captain: Snap Shot or Low Profile
Major: Head Shot
Colonel: In the Zone or Double Tap

Heavy
Squaddie: Fire Rocket
Corporal: Suppression or Aggression
Sergeant: Bullet Swarm or Shredder Rocket
Lieutenant: Flush or Holo-Targeting
Captain: HEAT Ammo or Danger Zone
Major: Will to Survive
Colonel: Rocketeer or Mayhem

[dubiousintent]

- Support gains a mobility point at squaddie, sergeant and captain. (replacing sprint).

- Support gains 5 defense at major (enhancing tactical sense bonus).

- Assault gains 5 defense at corporal, 5 defense at captain (making up for tactical sense).

- All shotguns will not fire a reaction shot until an enemy is within 8 tiles.

Is there any chance these could be implemented as separate Class mods; perhaps as ToolBoks Custom Mods? As in: are they simple FIND/REPLACE patterns or do they require more extensive changes?

 

-Dubious-

[johnnylump]

@Dubious

 

Those are actually DefaultGameCore.ini settings -- no upk editing needed.

 

For the stat changes, look for these lines:

SoldierStatProgression=(eClass=eSC_Support, eRank=eRank_Squaddie, iHP=1, iAim=5, iWill=2, iDefense=0, iMobility=1 )

 

The shotgun settings are these lines

 

Weapons=(iType=eItem_Shotgun,ABILITIES[0]=eAbility_ShotStandard,ABILITIES[1]=eAbility_Overwatch,ABILITIES[2]=eAbility_NONE,ABILITIES[3]=eAbility_NONE,ABILITIES[4]=eAbility_NONE,ABILITIES[5]=eAbility_NONE,Properties[0]=eWP_Assault,Properties[1]=eWP_None,Properties[2]=eWP_None,Properties[3]=eWP_None,Properties[4]=eWP_None,Properties[5]=eWP_None,iDamage=4,iEnvironmentDamage=40,iRange=10,iReactionRange=8,iReactionAngle=360,iRadius=0,iCritical=20,iOffenseBonus=0,iSuppression=0,iSize=eItemSize_Large,iHPBonus=0,iWillBonus=0)

 

Set iReactionRange to the number of tiles. (I did this for the scatter laser and alloy cannon, too)

 

I'll admit, the shotgun setting needs some more testing, but I think it works.

Edited March 10, 2013 by johnnylump