Alignment choices and why

[ZagreustheLiar]

Status: Asset (uncooperative), Dormant, Emissary Level Approval

Description: Jarl of Windhelm, leader of Stormcloak rebellion, Imperial Legion veteran

Background: Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War Against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.

 

Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.

 

Bolded what I think are critical points.

1. He was broken, that is clear. His reaction to Elenwen at the truce discussion is proof of his vulnerability. From a Nord perspective he is weak and not worthy of following.

2. He was obviously being influenced by the Thalmor. They used him to get access to Skyrim in order to prosecute the ban on Talos worship. Without this the ban would be nothing but words.

3. He probably realised he was being manipulated.

4. They don't think Ulfric can win without their aid.

 

1. Anyone who is not superhuman CHIM player character status would be broken under the care of one who is likely one of the best torturers in the Thalmor, but if you actually read they make zero mention of any actual access or actionable intelligence gained. From a real perspective no one knows about his "shameful" surrender during torture.

 

2. They established contact with him and he broke it off almost immediately. The rest of your point is conjecture as they merely say the Markarth incident was valuable to their goals, already established as formenting civil war in Skyrim and keeping it from being resolved (compare UN intervention in Sri Lanka).

 

3. "Probably" Do I even need to address this?

 

4. This is also complete conjecture, the only thing stated by them is that in the event of the tides of war shifting heavily against the Stormcloaks, they would in all likelyhood covertly support their cause to balance the scales. We can assume this also goes for the Empire, as they don't want the Imperials out of Skyrim neither.

 

(Either way, the canon inside my headstates that the Dragonborn kills Ulfric covertly, blaming the Thalmor and assumes command of the Stormcloaks! :D)

[luzburg]

Status: Asset (uncooperative), Dormant, Emissary Level Approval

Description: Jarl of Windhelm, leader of Stormcloak rebellion, Imperial Legion veteran

Background: Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War Against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.

 

Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.

 

Bolded what I think are critical points.

1. He was broken, that is clear. His reaction to Elenwen at the truce discussion is proof of his vulnerability. From a Nord perspective he is weak and not worthy of following.

2. He was obviously being influenced by the Thalmor. They used him to get access to Skyrim in order to prosecute the ban on Talos worship. Without this the ban would be nothing but words.

3. He probably realised he was being manipulated.

4. They don't think Ulfric can win without their aid.

 

1. Anyone who is not superhuman CHIM player character status would be broken under the care of one who is likely one of the best torturers in the Thalmor, but if you actually read they make zero mention of any actual access or actionable intelligence gained. From a real perspective no one knows about his "shameful" surrender during torture.

 

2. They established contact with him and he broke it off almost immediately. The rest of your point is conjecture as they merely say the Markarth incident was valuable to their goals, already established as formenting civil war in Skyrim and keeping it from being resolved (compare UN intervention in Sri Lanka).

 

3. "Probably" Do I even need to address this?

 

4. This is also complete conjecture, the only thing stated by them is that in the event of the tides of war shifting heavily against the Stormcloaks, they would in all likelyhood covertly support their cause to balance the scales. We can assume this also goes for the Empire, as they don't want the Imperials out of Skyrim neither.

 

(Either way, the canon inside my headstates that the Dragonborn kills Ulfric covertly, blaming the Thalmor and assumes command of the Stormcloaks! :D)

 

 

If this was public document your arguments might hold some weight. Its not, its for a handful of Thalmor ranked really high in the command. Why would they make up stuff for their own intelligence?

[ZagreustheLiar]

Status: Asset (uncooperative), Dormant, Emissary Level Approval

Description: Jarl of Windhelm, leader of Stormcloak rebellion, Imperial Legion veteran

Background: Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War Against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.

 

Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.

 

Bolded what I think are critical points.

1. He was broken, that is clear. His reaction to Elenwen at the truce discussion is proof of his vulnerability. From a Nord perspective he is weak and not worthy of following.

2. He was obviously being influenced by the Thalmor. They used him to get access to Skyrim in order to prosecute the ban on Talos worship. Without this the ban would be nothing but words.

3. He probably realised he was being manipulated.

4. They don't think Ulfric can win without their aid.

 

1. Anyone who is not superhuman CHIM player character status would be broken under the care of one who is likely one of the best torturers in the Thalmor, but if you actually read they make zero mention of any actual access or actionable intelligence gained. From a real perspective no one knows about his "shameful" surrender during torture.

 

2. They established contact with him and he broke it off almost immediately. The rest of your point is conjecture as they merely say the Markarth incident was valuable to their goals, already established as formenting civil war in Skyrim and keeping it from being resolved (compare UN intervention in Sri Lanka).

 

3. "Probably" Do I even need to address this?

 

4. This is also complete conjecture, the only thing stated by them is that in the event of the tides of war shifting heavily against the Stormcloaks, they would in all likelyhood covertly support their cause to balance the scales. We can assume this also goes for the Empire, as they don't want the Imperials out of Skyrim neither.

 

(Either way, the canon inside my headstates that the Dragonborn kills Ulfric covertly, blaming the Thalmor and assumes command of the Stormcloaks! :D)

 

 

If this was public document your arguments might hold some weight. Its not, its for a handful of Thalmor ranked really high in the command. Why would they make up stuff for their own intelligence?

 

First off, I'm not the one making interpretations - I'm saying what's written in the document. Moreover, I don't believe that the Thalmor would tolerate such a mistake, but I very much believe Bethesda would.

 

EDIT: It just struck me you might have believe that what you essentially conjured up from the bare bones of the document to be actual canon, in which case the one making the mistake is you.

Edited January 7, 2013 by ZagreustheLiar

[luzburg]

EDIT: It just struck me you might have believe that what you essentially conjured up from the bare bones of the document to be actual canon, in which case the one making the mistake is you.

 

Conjure? Lets try to find out where we agree then.

 

1. He was broken by the Thalmor.

2. He was released by The Thalmor

3. The document says he is contacted by the Thalmor

4. He retakes Markarth from the Forsworn

5. From that incident the Thalmor are given free reign to in Skyrim,.

6. Everything Ulfric has done up to before the game starts has been orchestrated by the Thalmor.

[RighthandofSithis]

EDIT: It just struck me you might have believe that what you essentially conjured up from the bare bones of the document to be actual canon, in which case the one making the mistake is you.

 

Conjure? Lets try to find out where we agree then.

 

1. He was broken by the Thalmor.

2. He was released by The Thalmor

3. The document says he is contacted by the Thalmor

4. He retakes Markarth from the Forsworn

5. From that incident the Thalmor are given free reign to in Skyrim,.

6. Everything Ulfric has done up to before the game starts has been orchestrated by the Thalmor.

 

1. Yes.

2. Yes.

3. Yes.

4. At the request of the Empire.

5. Its implied they had free reign beforehand.

6. Such as?

 

The whole theory that Ulfric is a Thalmor puppet is ridiculous. the Thalmor admit that he is not, and they know that his victory in the war will make Skyrim hostile to them.

[ZagreustheLiar]

EDIT: It just struck me you might have believe that what you essentially conjured up from the bare bones of the document to be actual canon, in which case the one making the mistake is you.

 

Conjure? Lets try to find out where we agree then.

 

1. He was broken by the Thalmor.

2. He was released by The Thalmor

3. The document says he is contacted by the Thalmor

4. He retakes Markarth from the Forsworn

5. From that incident the Thalmor are given free reign to in Skyrim,.

6. Everything Ulfric has done up to before the game starts has been orchestrated by the Thalmor.

 

I'd like to mirror the sentiments of RighthandofSithis, everything you said until point #5 and 6 is well and good but then you just dream up a bunch of what I can't even call conjecture or interpretation, just full blown fantasy, to justify your dislike of the Stormcloaks and Ulfric as quislings for the Thalmor.

Edited January 7, 2013 by ZagreustheLiar

[luzburg]

EDIT: It just struck me you might have believe that what you essentially conjured up from the bare bones of the document to be actual canon, in which case the one making the mistake is you.

 

Conjure? Lets try to find out where we agree then.

 

1. He was broken by the Thalmor.

2. He was released by The Thalmor

3. The document says he is contacted by the Thalmor

4. He retakes Markarth from the Forsworn

5. From that incident the Thalmor are given free reign to in Skyrim,.

6. Everything Ulfric has done up to before the game starts has been orchestrated by the Thalmor.

 

I'd like to mirror the sentiments of RighthandofSithis, everything you said until point #5 and 6 is well and good but then you just dream up a bunch of what I can't even call conjecture or interpretation, just full blown fantasy, to justify your dislike of the Stormcloaks and Ulfric as quislings for the Thalmor.

 

Calling it full blown fantasy is frankly insulting and borders on trolling. Its my interpretation of what I've read in the game, I never claimed it was anything more. The Markarth Incident meant that the Thalmor were allowed step up their campaign against Talos worship in Skyrim. That is what my memory says. Please correct me if I am wrong about that fact.

 

I don't see how you can refute the fact that Ulfric has been used to further Thalmor interests. I really can't.

[ZagreustheLiar]

EDIT: It just struck me you might have believe that what you essentially conjured up from the bare bones of the document to be actual canon, in which case the one making the mistake is you.

 

Conjure? Lets try to find out where we agree then.

 

1. He was broken by the Thalmor.

2. He was released by The Thalmor

3. The document says he is contacted by the Thalmor

4. He retakes Markarth from the Forsworn

5. From that incident the Thalmor are given free reign to in Skyrim,.

6. Everything Ulfric has done up to before the game starts has been orchestrated by the Thalmor.

 

I'd like to mirror the sentiments of RighthandofSithis, everything you said until point #5 and 6 is well and good but then you just dream up a bunch of what I can't even call conjecture or interpretation, just full blown fantasy, to justify your dislike of the Stormcloaks and Ulfric as quislings for the Thalmor.

 

Calling it full blown fantasy is frankly insulting and borders on trolling. Its my interpretation of what I've read in the game, I never claimed it was anything more. The Markarth Incident meant that the Thalmor were allowed step up their campaign against Talos worship in Skyrim. That is what my memory says. Please correct me if I am wrong about that fact.

 

I don't see how you can refute the fact that Ulfric has been used to further Thalmor interests. I really can't.

 

I already have, multiple times. Now, to say that the actions of Ulfric happened to be beneficial towards Thalmor interests is another thing entirely (as long as he doesn't actually win), but by deliberately choosing the word "use" you are inferring again that he is under their control.

[luzburg]

I already have, multiple times. Now, to say that the actions of Ulfric happened to be beneficial towards Thalmor interests is another thing entirely (as long as he doesn't actually win), but by deliberately choosing the word "use" you are inferring again that he is under their control.

 

So the problem you have is with how much influence I suggested the Thalmor had over Ulfric. OK, we're getting somewhere.

 

The Dossier clearly states that they make contact with Ulfric. I'm not suggesting that he knew it was a Thalmor agent, it could easily have been someone masquerading as an Imperial Officer (like they did in the 'Siege on the Dragon Cult' quest) or something else. The part I agree is stretching the dossier's content, is that the Thalmor directly manipulated Ulfric into committing the atrocities in Markarth. I believe they did just that.

[ZagreustheLiar]

I already have, multiple times. Now, to say that the actions of Ulfric happened to be beneficial towards Thalmor interests is another thing entirely (as long as he doesn't actually win), but by deliberately choosing the word "use" you are inferring again that he is under their control.

 

So the problem you have is with how much influence I suggested the Thalmor had over Ulfric. OK, we're getting somewhere.

 

The Dossier clearly states that they make contact with Ulfric. I'm not suggesting that he knew it was a Thalmor agent, it could easily have been someone masquerading as an Imperial Officer (like they did in the 'Siege on the Dragon Cult' quest) or something else. The part I agree is stretching the dossier's content, is that the Thalmor directly manipulated Ulfric into committing the atrocities in Markarth. I believe they did just that.

 

What atrocities? The only account of these supposed crimes is from an Imperial scholar who is clearly biased above and beyond his ethnic affiliation, having written a book that glorifies the Forsworn, in fact he is so partisan that he does not even believe in Talos (and that's what I call a real agent of the Thalmor). I don't really understand your beef with the greatest champion of national liberation in Tamriel.

 

"National aspirations must be respected; people may now be dominated and governed only by their own consent. Self determination is not a mere phrase; it is an imperative principle of action. . . . "

—Woodrow Wilson with his famous self-determination speech on 11 February 1918 after he announced his Fourteen Points on 8 January 1918.

Edited January 8, 2013 by ZagreustheLiar