Just how powerful is the DragonBorn?

[notmyhome]

I've always wanted to watch a lore debate between someone who knows every detail about the game series any developer ever said, and another guy who knows most in-game content to the letter. The Internet hasn't disappointed me.

[Mortrix927]

I've always wanted to watch a lore debate between someone who knows every detail about the game series any developer ever said, and another guy who knows most in-game content to the letter. The Internet hasn't disappointed me.

 

Yes, it is an interesting conversation.

 

Also, I've tended to notice that the PC is usually an "average" person in ES games, if not actually a bit below. The one thing they have is some sort of calling from one god or the other. It's like unless you really, really role play to becoming super human - which typically takes a long time - you are not actually all that powerful. I mean, in Skyrim for instance, you can finish the two main quests at level 10, which at least to my mind, would be where you'd just now be being taken seriously as...Well, whatever profession you're pretending to have. To be more realistic, and have all the advantages one one expect for someone able to defeat the lead dragon and single handedly win a civil war, I'd say level 50 would be the minimum. To my mind, that would mean you'd be as good as, or better, than exactly half of the practicioners of your craft.

 

Plus, I've always found it bogus that you can down blood dragon #123 no problem, and not 5 minutes latter get your backside handed to you by some random bandit. I mean if you're that easy to defeat, why doesn't the legion just force all the captured bandits in the jails to fight the dragons?

[TheVampireDante]

 

 

 

I mean if you're that easy to defeat, why doesn't the legion just force all the captured bandits in the jails to fight the dragons?

 

 

I'd rather know how they caught those bandits in the first place, since the outlaws way outclass the city guards and legion/Stormcloak soldiers in a fight.

[Mortrix927]

 

 

 

 

I mean if you're that easy to defeat, why doesn't the legion just force all the captured bandits in the jails to fight the dragons?

 

 

I'd rather know how they caught those bandits in the first place, since the outlaws way outclass the city guards and legion/Stormcloak soldiers in a fight.

 

Um, yeah, you have a point. They handcuffed them and hauled them to jail while they were asleep? OH wait... the legion/stormcloaks wake the dead when trying to sneak... ER they had a mage cast a spell on a bandit camp, transporting everyone there to jail?

[Riprock]

 

 

 

 

 

:smile:

is knowledge gained by another's tutelage still not knowledge?

That's not the point; the Dragonborn wouldn't be able to defeat Miraak without it.

 

 

So the Dragonborn can only be powerful if he came by knowledge in an original fashion? If so, the idea of Word Walls should also be an example of the Dragonborn not actually being powerful: that's not him, he's just copying, in essence.

 

Your standpoint is that the Dragonborn needs to stand on his own two feet 100%, he cannot stand on the shoulders of those that came before. That describes an Ultimate Deity, not a Hero, wouldn't you agree? And in Skyrim, we are not playing the role of an Ultimate Deity. It's also a classic element of character development when a protagonist discovers lost knowledge, and in part, that plays directly to the concept of 'The Hero's Journey'.

 

The Word Walls is just a mechanism to set the protagonist out in search for knowledge; either set on by the Greybeards, discovered on accident, or found on his own behalf, to become more powerful. Most likely the first and the latter, and the Dragonborn still has to go through great lengths to gain it─which is undeniably part of being a Hero.

 

Of course not. A Hero is someone with great lines, wondrous speeches; an individual who overcomes obstacles, struggles, and learns from the mistakes of his/her predecessors to achieve goals thought impossible for mortals. Not someone who gets power, albeit plenty, handed on a silver platter to achieve a certain goal. I didn't say the Dragonborn is an Ultimate Deity, nor did I imply that. The Dragonborn is a Hero, no argument there. Though I didn't know we were discussing my standpoint on the definition of a Hero.

 

 

...so how can you stand by the premise of "the Dragonborn could not defeat Miirak" without something? That standpoint illustrates a deficiency in the terms of "power" because the Dragonborn had aid. But at the same time, without the aid of people and creatures and even Things teaching the Dragonborn Shouts...the Dragonborn cannot acheive his or her goals.

 

I'm not going into "your" description of Hero. I am going into THE description of Hero, by the way. Only an Ultimate Deity creates from nothing. The Dragonborn cannot create from nothing, but your outlook seems to be that he should.

 

Because his description of hero is "opinion" and your description of hero is "fact". Sure, do you really expect anyone to take your word for the one and only truth?

 

Still don't agree with either of the hero definitions. I'd say a hero is someone who puts his life on the line for a cause or for other people and who serves as a role model. The Dragonborn isn't necessarily a Hero since you can make whatever choice you want to. You can be an a**hole to everyone in game and you can also be the archetypical paladin.

 

Regardless on whether he's a Hero or not, that doesn't matter, it's just a title. Could the Dragonborn win a battle with a Daedra? Given the achievements of Talos and some other people in TES Lore, I'd say that not only the Dragonborn, but anyone with enough talent, luck and the right tools is capable of attaining godhood and defeating other gods, it just takes the right events to happen at the right time.

 

 

Rubbish.

 

I pointed out that a description given was that of an Ultimate Deity, not a Hero. I contrasted the two briefly based on an ability to come by original knowledge versus knowledge gained from some kind of helpful source. It is a case of me taking the standpoint that I disagree with a viewpoint given. A viewpoint that was not yours, by the way. When two people disagree, they may present their standpoints, and I don't need your permission to do it. If I chose to have a friendly debate that is my business.

 

Your manner and words are insulting. Piss off.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Riprock

[Lachdonin]

Hero has a set definition in TES. A Hero is the driving force in an Event, and shall be preceded by Prophecy.

 

There is no set criteria for their strength, knowledge or capabilities, but Hero is far more than a title. It is a TASK, to decide how an event plays out. There's no real certainty of success, because failure is still a decision.

[tx12001]

Just how powerful is the dragonborn? well that depends on what kind of dragonborn, their is no accurate answer because everyone would have a differing opinion as they create their own dragonborn, some dragonborns that people play as are Human, some Elven, Some are lycanthopes and some of even Vampires, I have a dragonborn who is a Lich through the undead mod and I also have a dragonborn who is a Vampire lord voa dawnguard DLC, my dragonborn character's are ungodly powerful but that is how I created them while someone else would create a dragonborn who was not very powerful at all so their is no right or wrong answer, but your average dragonborn who is far beneath what the player character is would be capable of besting the greybeards and you can see ingame what they are capable of.

Edited January 22, 2015 by tx12001

[TheSupreme27]

 

I never had the impression the Dragonborn is all that powerful.

 

The Dragonborn is born with the ability to absorb dragon souls and thereby gain a Thu'um or shout. I didn't find that the shouts were all that unique or even powerful. I consider that anyone who puts the time and effort to learn and to practice can learn a shout, such as Ulfric, the Greybeards and even draugr. Being given something that should take time and effort to master has me thinking the Dragonborn is actually weaker than what a Dragonborn should be. There should be at least some effort in becoming a Master of the Voice.

 

The shouts them self are not all that powerful. So they can knock a NPC down and scare a dragon by giving them a glimpse of mortality. Sort of more convenient than powerful, especially considering the myth of a Thu'um supposedly being able to tear an enemy apart. Sort of disappointing in a way.

 

Killing a dragon doesn't require a powerful individual either. I have seen two frost trolls kill a blood dragon and a couple of guards and some towns folk kill a frost dragon in Dawnstar. Not exactly powerful individuals. As for Alduin, I look at the assistance the Dragonborn had in the fight and also that he did not absorb Alduin's soul. So is Alduin dead or was he injured and Akatosh took him away for some other purpose at some other time?

 

I can't think of anything in the game that demonstrates the Dragonborn as powerful. Sure, the Dragonborn is probably brave and has some fighting skills, but nothing that places the Dragonborn above anyone or anything else in the game as "powerful". Honestly, I sort of found that appealing as some powerful, demigod like individual who can take out anyone anywhere would have been really boring and a terrible game experience.

Gameplay and Lore are not the same thing, at least not in my book. In Lore, a Dragon is the kind of thing that can devastate an army in moments, obviously they can't be that strong in the game, or you would never be able to defeat them. As they are they're generally too easy to kill, which is a pretty massive inconsistensy with how they've been described in the Lore. Even if you disregard that, a dragon isn't really dead until the Dovahkiin eats it's soul. Even if some town guards could kill a dragon attacking their city, so what? Alduin could swoop on in and ressurect that Dragon whenever he wanted to, or just kill everyone given that he is literally unstoppable unless a demigod travels into the realm of an actual God and kills him there.

 

My friend ..... Lore is the equivalent of history in a game......... if there is no lore in a game then there is no story..... hell the gameplay will always try to be related to the lore ...... ESPECIALLY IN SKYRIM........

Hell if you think lore is stupid and just because you can defeat alduin in the gameplay doesnt mean you are all powerful.......

In lore, Alduin is someone who eats worlds like it was lunch..... and if you put that into gameplay and while you were busy partying in Helgen then Alduin emerges then eats the world..... then it would be a fun game then huh?

[kimmera]

 

My friend ..... Lore is the equivalent of history in a game......... if there is no lore in a game then there is no story..... hell the gameplay will always try to be related to the lore ...... ESPECIALLY IN SKYRIM........

 

Hell if you think lore is stupid and just because you can defeat alduin in the gameplay doesnt mean you are all powerful.......

In lore, Alduin is someone who eats worlds like it was lunch..... and if you put that into gameplay and while you were busy partying in Helgen then Alduin emerges then eats the world..... then it would be a fun game then huh?

 

 

Supposedly Alduin emerges relatively weak and is building up his strength. The other dragons are similarly just returning. Besides, we don't really have anything to scale their power to other than old legends, which might have been embellished to make those who fought and/or killed dragons in the past more heroic. It is much more often that such events get exaggerated than played down.

[Lachdonin]

 

 

My friend ..... Lore is the equivalent of history in a game......... if there is no lore in a game then there is no story..... hell the gameplay will always try to be related to the lore ...... ESPECIALLY IN SKYRIM........

 

Hell if you think lore is stupid and just because you can defeat alduin in the gameplay doesnt mean you are all powerful.......

In lore, Alduin is someone who eats worlds like it was lunch..... and if you put that into gameplay and while you were busy partying in Helgen then Alduin emerges then eats the world..... then it would be a fun game then huh?

 

 

Supposedly Alduin emerges relatively weak and is building up his strength. The other dragons are similarly just returning. Besides, we don't really have anything to scale their power to other than old legends, which might have been embellished to make those who fought and/or killed dragons in the past more heroic. It is much more often that such events get exaggerated than played down.

 

 

There's a lot of speculation as to why Alduin is in the state he's in. Kirkbride indicates that Akatosh has done something to basically screw him over. Some people beleive there may be some mythoepea at play. Some think him rejecting his nature (as World Eater) has left him weak.

 

One way or another, it's very clear that the Alduin in Skyrim is not the same one who can swallow the Hraalmarch without having to chew.