Civil War = Our Politics Today

[EliteDeathSkull]

When I first played Skyrim as an Orc, I chose to side with the Stormcloaks. Not because of their ideals, but because I chose to escape with Ralof (I felt I needed to help the Stormcloaks since they helped me escape Helgen), because the Empire would have executed me for a dumb reason and I felt the Empire needed a good ass-kicking, and also because I found the Empire's ban of Talos worship saddening. It wasn't until later when I thought, "It's kind of odd that an Orc is fighting for Nord supremacy), but thought that I still owed the Stormcloaks service, and that this was my chance to weaken the very Empire that sought to kill me, as well as allow freedom of religion. My views have changed, and I'm with the Imperial viewpoint, but I can also see this as an example on how some people blindly side for political party without really knowing it's ideals, as with the case in which children grow up siding with one side of the spectrum, only because their parent's did, and soon their children will.

[Gamelan]

Yes it is what ends up happening that actually counts and that is my point, bethesda could have written the story some other way instead of making the nords or the thalmor or the empire so extreme.

I completely agree. Well said.

 

Instead of doing that obvious good idea they chose to push politics and liberal preaching. Currently in america where this game is made? the extremes that make the most noise are the liberals since they own most of the news and entertainment media there.

The interesting thing that's happening in America right now is that the Conservatives/Republicans are now trying hard to appeal to women and minorities because they are afraid there are not enough white Americans to elect them again... and Obama is using Conservatives/Republicans as advisers because he wants the Democrats to appeal to the white male majority.

 

This is actually a really weird time in American politics...

 

Anyway, yeah, it's like the game doesn't want creative solutions. Instead, it just wants you to pick an extreme and kinda stick to it. I guess this is why so many players go so long without getting involved in the Civil War at all. When you think about it, most intelligent people would want nothing to do with any of these idiots.

 

:happy:

[Tank0123]

I could've sworn I'd set this thread to give me immediate notification of postings; seems like it just blew up with responses. Regardless, I'll be reading through and responding accordingly.

 

Having pride in your country is viewed as racist only by liberals because tradition and culture get in the way of progress and liberals want to progress all over your life and make you just like them. YES the storyline of this game does seem similar to American politics and I can't stand it

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson

 

The interesting thing about the sort of "pride" or "patriotism" displayed in Skyrim by the Nords is that it doesn't stop there - for many Nords, it's about "purifying" Skyrim; putting "lesser races" in ghettos, not allowing certain races in cities, and rejecting the Imperial notion at Tamriel is, in fact, one society. Ulfric and the Stormcloaks have a very specific agenda - "Skyrim is for the Nords". The Imperials, on the other hand, view Skyrim as part of the Empire - part of THEIR country - and in this regard the politics of Skyrim are nothing like American politics. Perhaps there are similarities when it comes to immigration let's say, but apart from that, the politics of Skyrim are about separation and segregation; something hopefully America has moved on from by now.

 

Basically, the way I see it, unless you're a Nord you have no good reason to support the Stormcloak Rebellion, because the society the Nords who pledge themselves to Ulfric want to create doesn't have a place in it for you.

 

I was particularly fond of the bit about the Empire thinking that Skyrim belongs to them, that it's their country -- it almost makes me want to equate it to the American Revolution, but then it's far more complicated than that. You're right, it's hard to compare politics between real life and Skyrim -- you either have the same basic template for both sides of a conflict, which may vary a bit but are ultimately the same, or you simply can't compare them at all. That said, I find it all very fascinating.

[Tank0123]

Wow. That was quite the rant there dragonslayer. I like the passion!

 

In any event, we're discussing Skyrim here, and in Skyrim you have a simple setup; Skyrim is PART of the Empire. In this regard, Skyrim isn't really another country... it's a province within a much larger territorial entity.

 

What the Stormcloaks want, and you can't really argue with this, is a society where Nords are treated as Class A citizens and everyone else is treated as a Class B citizen. They aren't just proud of their cultural heritage... they want to keep Imperial citizens of other races OUT of their cities and OUT of Skyrim.

 

Now, if you believe that "liberal" = "not a racist", then that's a good thing. If you believe "liberal" = "naive", then perhaps there are places where you are certainly correct. However, in the context of this discussion, the type of pride displayed by the Stormcloaks has less to do with their love of Skyrim and more to do with their dislike of other races being in it. They think that Skyrim should be separate and that they should have the right to segregate their society; the Imperials feel otherwise.

 

This is why I have always supported the Empire. Not just because they're inclusive, but because the Imperial ideals are simply better than the Stormcloak ideals. The Stormcloaks basically just want a rebellion and to shape Skyrim however they want, whereas the Imperials want to see a continuation of the Empire as a strong unified military and mercantile enterprise.

 

Haha, hardly a rant.

 

It's not that I feel conservatives are strictly racists, or that liberals are strictly cowards. It was very hard for me to write those things, because in the end, there's always more to it. I would say that some conservatives are racists, but so are some liberals when you think about it. I won't go into the details of that, because that's not what we're here for.

 

Actually, now that I've thought about it, the true, down-to-earth of each side is found in two very simple and unappreciated characters: Hadvar (Empire) and Ralof (Stormcloaks). I've only really ever talked to Hadvar (having never sided with Ralof or joined the Stormcloaks) but listening to both at the beginning -- what they say makes sense. Hadvar's argument is that the Empire needs to be united, that the Civil War is a distraction from the bigger picture of the Thalmor -- concessions did have to be made for now. The Empire needs time to repair, to strike back. Ralof, in turn, argues that the Empire, by banning the worship of Talos and signing themselves over to the Thalmor, have lost their legitimacy to rule effectively. While I'm always pro-Imperial, I feel Ralof has a point; the Empire was willing to give up Hammerfell just as easily at the demands of the Thalmor -- yet Hammerfell resisted and the Thalmor were beaten. If I were Ralof and a Stormcloak, then wouldn't I see Skyrim just as capable of doing the same?

 

Therefore, I find that both sides have a certain legitimacy to them, just as the down-to-earth of both the Republicans and Democrats, Conservatives and Liberals each have legitimate points (though in my opinion, I find that the Reps/Dems are just meaningless names at this point).

 

Perhaps, in a way, General Tullius/Ulfric Stormcloak and the higher-ups/various extreme individuals who side with them have just hijacked the good qualities of each standpoint -- such is the way of modern politics. That's why you've got the Republicans and Democrats both going absolutely insane with policy and viewpoint. In reality, these elected officials or, in Skyrim, these leaders are just the extremes, the tips of the pyramids of each side. It's those Hadvars and Ralofs that make up the base, which, surprisingly, I think it quite larger than would initially appear. Sure, every character in Skyrim has their views; but really, most are indifferent. They just want everything to be fine again -- not having to deal with politics that are so far out of reach. I'd say many Americans are like that too, though in a smaller proportion than in Skyrim.

 

I really think that Bethesda should do a DLC in which a new High King is elected after the Civil War/Main Quest is over -- only, it should be you, the Dragonborn, son of Talos. It would be you who would unite Skyrim/the Empire against the Thalmor -- because either way the victory goes, it's an "oh-sh--" moment for the Thalmor, since they were counting on the CW for dragging out long. But of course this is just pointless conjecture, though an interesting idea.

 

Edit:

 

In any event, we're discussing Skyrim here, and in Skyrim you have a simple setup; Skyrim is PART of the Empire. In this regard, Skyrim isn't really another country... it's a province within a much larger territorial entity.

 

This is the second time in this thread that I've seen the Pro-Imperial argument that Skyrim has always been a part of the Empire and has never been some autonomous province. I've never seen or heard this point mentioned elsewhere, so I find it quite fascinating. Good show, thank you both!

Edited January 11, 2013 by Tank0123

[ploppytheman]

I havent looked at the politics of skyrim at all but I plan to, Ill come back and post my thoughts maybe.

[Brandy1123]

THe imperials are puppets in Skyrim. THey bow down to "Thalmor Supremacy". The Thalmor are worse then the Nords. The Thalmor are invaders and have a quest to enslave all others inclusive. I am not saying Stormcloaks are right, but loking at the two sides, I'd never assist anyone having them as allies. Even the problems with the MAges college is due to one of their kind. THey strive for complete and ultimate power and authority. They are above the laws and walk freely with arrogance. If you take them out of the picture, the imperials plight is worthwhile and commendable. Uniting the lands would be a good thing, but make for boring game play.

 

 

(conversation between Ulfric and Galmar Stone-Fist)

 

Ulfric, the Jarl Balgruf of white run refuses to sign the trade treaty until he can get more ink for his golden pen.

Galmar, He is a true Nord. He'll get his ink.

Ulfric, he will not come around, we need to take more action and send him a message.

My friend, do you want me to bleed my ink over his document? Tear the corners and cheapen its look?

No, but he needs to be taught a lesson. To insure his stock is full and provisions pleantiful.

Here, take him my pen to him. He will know what it means. IF he returns it, well, then,,, we'll just have to start another version of this trade operandum and hope he gets the ink he deserves.

[Tank0123]

THe imperials are puppets in Skyrim. THey bow down to "Thalmor Supremacy". The Thalmor are worse then the Nords. The Thalmor are invaders and have a quest to enslave all others inclusive. I am not saying Stormcloaks are right, but loking at the two sides, I'd never assist anyone having them as allies. Even the problems with the MAges college is due to one of their kind. THey strive for complete and ultimate power and authority. They are above the laws and walk freely with arrogance. If you take them out of the picture, the imperials plight is worthwhile and commendable. Uniting the lands would be a good thing, but make for boring game play.

 

I wouldn't say that they were allies. The Imperials want just as much to destroy the Thalmor as the Stormcloaks, they just want to do it a different way. Which method is better? I usually side with the Imperials over nostalgia purposes, but I honestly can't say for certain.

[Riprock]

No. Sorry. Cannot agree even 1%. Much too much rationalization and assumption

[Kayyyleb]

Wow. That was quite the rant there dragonslayer. I like the passion!

Too bad he's wrong about practically everything. But meh.

 

If the Stormcloaks are being likened to conservatives in America then maybe I hated them with a subconscious passion and just never knew it.

[zombierelic]

Really? I always thought of them more as Rome but I guess if you really wanted to you can draw parallels to pretty much any nation at any time period.