You’re just a an unimportant piece of some game *Contains major spoile

[sajuukkhar9000]

-Well THAT system runs into the problem of this, being able to make something, and being able to USE said thing, are totally unrelated skills.
--You can know how to make a piano, but not know how to play one
--You can know how make a car, but not know how to drive it
--You can know how to make a sword, but not actually how to use one

Tying a players ability to enchant/smith something to their skill in that weapon is nonsensical, because the ability to make something, and the ability to use it, are unrelated abilities.

Furthermore, tying a player's enchanting skill into the power of a pre-enchanted item also makes no sense. It's like saying the player's ability to smith influences the the effectiveness of an armor improvement made by another smith, or someone's ability to write somehow affects the legibility of an essay written by someone else. It doesn't.

 

-A lock on combat system? ugh, I can see the issue with switching between multiple enemies already, those kind of systems have serious problems, and annoy the hell out of people.

 

and how exactly would using your mouse to swing work with the xbox? or ps3? where attacking is a single button press? and on the PC the mouse is used to look around, even with the target lock-on system, having to look up/down or side to side to get a sword to move in that direction would be painful.

 

The solution to Skyrim's combat problems IMO involves actually making the enemies do something. Skyrim's main problem is that enemies dont do anything but try to attack you, despite the fact that many other combat options exist in the game. Enemies hardly ever block, they hardly ever power attack, they almost never shield bash, and they lack all the perks to improve shield bashing like the "chance to disarm when shield bashing perk". If enemies actually did these things, the player would be forced to do something, besides just bum rush them, as well. that's the solution to Skyrim's combat problems, not all this lock on stuff.

 

-Runescape is also an MMO, and MMOs use those boring crafting skill to make the player have to grind for excessive length to get better gear...... for combat. All crafting skills in MMO feed into the combat of that MMO, that's the whole point of the crafting skills.

 

-variety should come from skills that provide a clear and unique gameplay mechanic that actually serves the rest of the game in a big way, not because you just made every little activity into a "skill" even when it really didn't mean to be, that does help variety either, that just makes the game over-bloated with filler.

 

-Well, unless the bonus is very very large, the rate of decay should naturally wipe it out fairly quickly, and if the bonus isn't super huge, and the rate of decay doesn't wipe it out quickly, then the rate of decay must be super small, and if that true, then what's the point of the decay in the first place?

 

-It's not that the lower level content isn't good, it's just that it isn't as fun.

 

-Politics in the middle ages was all about murder, assassination, poisoning, it's ALL about combat. As for your other suggestions

--Finding ancient recipes for smithing, they would naturally be in the locked vault of ancient cities... behind traps, and all the undead/creatures that have taken up residence there ever since the original tenants died. Which requires combat.

--Those are exactly the type of boring radiant quests I was talking about. "ohh, we have heard that X farmer lost some of his crops and cant afford to feed his family, can you make 19 pies so that he can eat till his new crops grow?", and helping the downtrodden "ohh, we heard that X person in Y city has lost their home, can you help them find a place to live in the local temples/whatever place until they can get back on their feet?". those the the exact type of quests that would end up in a radiant quest system with randomly chosen targets. It would be exactly like one of those Jarl bounty quests, but giving food/money to people instead of killing something.

--How would fishing help you find objects for puzzles? if the item is underwater, why couldn't we just jump in the water and find it? As for helping old men beat a fish he has had trouble with, wouldn't that just involve taking a bow and arrow and shooting it dead?

--Building quests, again, more radiant quests. "ohh hey, we heard some people at X settlement need more wood for expansions to their town, can you chop some wood for us?"

 

And having skills for the sake of skills is terrible game design, if something does not have a clear cut, and useful, game mechanic applied to it, it needs to be cut/merged with something else. Creating content just to have more content is wasteful, and only drags down the quality of the overall game because, instead of focusing on making the things that mattered to the overall gameplay, the devs wasted time making superfluous stuff just for the sake of it being there.

 

As for the MQ, well the whole point of the ES series name is that the game is set in a prophecy foretold by the Elder Scrolls, a game were you WEREN'T the savior of the world would be missing the point of the ES series very name.

 

And while you can use companions to essentially play the game for you, that's not exactly a well designed game IMO.

 

-On the other hand, there is no sound reason to have things not merged besides to just have more systems where there doesn't need to be. Keeping attributes separate when they can be merged into skill/perks only serves to make utterly redundant systems for the sake of having more systems. It's like having every single weapon type their own skill when one handed skills can all be merged into one skill, and given perk tree branches to give them their own mechanics.

 

Having multiple systems that do essentially the same thing does not make the game more deep, it just means you designed several redundant systems, and neutered each one by stripping out powers/ability from one, and spreading them around multiple systems that didn't need to exist.

 

And I'm not ignoring the logical reasons for their separation, I just dont see them at all, besides to maintain some 30 year old standard created by a boardgame that was created before computer technology existed beyond the most simplistic of systems.

 

-it depends on what you define as "deep", frankly, I find most video games go far deeper then DND ever could hope to, if only for the sheer reason that what you do is actually visualized instead of being all in your head. But beyond that, most of D&D so called "depth" comes from the fact that, because it's a boardgame, it has to rely on various proxy systems in order to get it to work.

 

D&D's depth frankly shouldn't be in video games at all, because video games are far more advanced then boardgames, and don't need to rely on proxies, such as dice roll combat, to simulate things that can, and should, be done by the player. If even half of D&D's systems were in a modern game, I would have to question the skill of the devs who made that game to begin with, as with the ever increasing power of technology, everything that D&D's systems do, gets negated/destroyed by being able to shift responsibility onto the player.

 

-But strength isn't in the one handed skill tree, STR was combined with endurance to effect carry weight. Your one handed skill/perks affect nothing about your character STR.

 

-Skyrim has more enemy variety then Oblivion did, and what change would logically happen? No really, you kill some animals in a cave, more animals move in, you clear out a bandit nest, a nearby bandit clan takes it over as their base so they dont have to live outside. The only time a change would logically occur is when the military takes over an old fort or something, which does happen in Skyrim.

 

-I agree, but only at the most basic of levels. However, most of it comes from that's just how X class plays, how exactly does a thief tackle a problem other then by sneaking their way through it? how exactly does a warrior solve a problem besides bashing peoples faces in? how exactly does a mage solve a problem besides using magic? the whole point of a class is that you focus on one type of solving a situation, and then get really good at it, warrior not being a warrior to solve a problem goes against the entire point of being a warrior to begin with.

 

-I just in Skyrim all the time, Bethesda hid so many things in places that require jumping to get to, and jumping up cliff faces saves time in getting to places because you dont have to walk around. And making them scale/level differently really only turns into a grind, which they were already to begin with. Athletics in Oblivion leveled so much slower then all other skills that the most commonly stated means of leveling it was to go jam your character against a wall while swimming, and leave the game running for a couple hours while your character just swam in that one spot. Making them level even slower just makes the grind worse, and the grind was terrible to begin with.

 

Kinda because the 18 skills in Skyrim can comfortably achieve what the 30+ skills did in Daggerfall.

 

Why have 30 vague and unbalanced skills when you can have 18 well-detailed and polished skills instead?

 

this.

Edited February 15, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[HeyYou]

Kinda because the 18 skills in Skyrim can comfortably achieve what the 30+ skills did in Daggerfall.

 

Why have 30 vague and unbalanced skills when you can have 18 well-detailed and polished skills instead?

Well polished skills? Really?

 

Thing was, you do not use the same techniques with a short blade, as you would a long blade, and certainly not a mace, or an axe...... The skills weren't "vague", they were rather specific to the weapon they governed.

 

Athletics: Determined running/walking speed, etc. How is that vague? I find it more reasonable than EVERYONE having the EXACT same walk/run speed.....

 

Same for acrobatics. (I will grant that it could use some tweaking though....)

 

I am more comparing to Morrowind here than Daggerfall though. Daggerfall also had a selection of language skills, which I never did ever find any real use for.... Yeah, some of the skills in daggerfall WERE useless.

[imperistan]

- Not every creator knows how to use his creations, nor would, even if they do know the in-depth functions of their creations. Most of the smiths I know don't even have any interest in learning how to use the weapons they make. They just like creating them.

 

- You've got it backwards. I never said that the ability to enchant or smith be tied to the skill of the item being made, but that the actual use of the item being made being tied to the skill. IE, the use of the base sword to long blade, the use of its enchantment to enchanting. (With a special case for pre-enchanted items, such as uniques or generic magic items that allowed them to be used regardless of enchant skill, but with the caveat of either A, being relatively low level (in the case of generics), or B, being hard to obtain and harder to use.(in the case of uniques) )

 

- 1. I'm not designing any of my systems for use on consoles. Period.

 

2. The controls wouldn't be so that you'd be basically shaking your screen just to move your weapon. Combat lock would lock your look on your current enemy (or enemies), and your mouse would only control your weapon's movement. A hat switch would be present (using middle mouse) to allow you to override that so that you can look around your character as you fight.

 

3. My idea was just an alternative to Skyrim's take on combat. Not a fix or development of it.

 

- I dont' think you've ever played Runescape. Otherwise, you'd know how some of the most successful players in the game are still level 1. As well as how non-combat in that game (non-combat isn't just crafting, if you didn't know) doesn't just fuel combat characters.

 

- You're refusing to see the point in role-playing (nothing that I've suggested can possibly harm the ability to play a certain character. Only enhance it), as well as why role playing makes the only redundant systems those that aren't fleshed out enough to stand on their own.

 

Designing an entire skill around the sole mind-numbing system of fishing in Skyrim would be dumb and pointless. Designing an entire skill around a wide array of fishing based activities and systems is not.

 

- The point is to make it so the game doesn't become too easy, too fast. The difference between level 80 and level 90 in a skill should be very very different (because of the way the power scale would work), and if you're still leveling that skill at the same rate as you were at level 50, then you'll end up blowing through levels 80-90 and seeing your power jump substantial with no more effort than you were originally putting in.

 

It would also help this system to add in more functions that can help level your skill, rather than the basic use=xp point that is present now, basically creating an actual XP system.

 

- Same thing. Yes, high level content should be more fun than low-level content, but not to the point that low-level content becomes pointless.

 

- 1. Seeing as TES doesn't follow real world cultural trends, this point is rather moot.

 

2. Nothing wrong with radiant quests, and further, who the hell says that all of theses quests HAVE to be radiant? That isn't very creative, both on your part and whoever would actually say that.

 

3. Please show me how you intent to jump down that half a foot wide water well. As well as how you plan on getting through that grate. Do tell, how you plan on using your bow and arrow to kill something that lives far too deep for an arrows force to stay consistent while travelling through the water. Do tell, how you plan on explaining to that man why you killed the fish when he just wanted to catch it for the challenge, not to just kill it.

 

- As I"ve said before, this system is based around the assumption that all skills and mechanics put in the game are fully fleshed out. And before you try and point out the amount of skills I listed originally do remember that I also said those were just there for the sake of argument, not as a literal list of skills. Its hard to take your criticisms seriously when you're basing those criticisms on non-literal examples.

 

- I'm guessing Arena, Daggerfall, and Oblivion missed the point then, right? I'm also guessing is downright impossible to be a savior of the world and also be non-combat. Gods forbid good writing actually exist and that you aren't shoehorned into picking up a sword just to progress in a game. :rolleyes:

 

- Please stop ignoring the context of this system. Your criticisms hold no weight when you're taking this system completely out of context as you purposely simplify definitions and ignore the contextual condition of the mechanics this system would govern.

 

- Pretty graphics an in-depth game does not make. This is partly why Morrowind is a more believable world, even if its visual and audible properties aren't of the highest quality. (which in turn is more due to its age. Few games back then looked much better than Morrowind did outside the animation department. (but even back then Morrowind's animations were bad by the standards of the day))

 

- The development of player skill in games doesn't mean that character skill should be forgotten. And more than that, real roleplaying is creating a character distinct from yourself. Its an off shoot of writing where you get to actually play out the character's life, moment by moment, rather than just thinking the character up and imagining his story all at once. Without character skill, this idea is diminished. (And no, doing this requires more than what you think. All systems must support this effort, and to take away or simplify even one of them unnecessarily diminishes this)

 

- Make a little more sense please. Endurance doesn't exist in Skyrim. Unless you're talking about fatigue, but in that case all attributes got rolled into their derivatives and actually lost all connection with skills almost entirely. That is very different from what we were discussing in this particular string of -.

 

- What you suggest makes the world less alive. That is bad. Its not about enemy variety, its about variety in what you actually see. Seeing different things in the same place adds more variety than a continual stream of the same things.

 

Fact of the matter is, any number of things could move in to a cave that's been vacated. To say that only one type of thing would ever, ever go there isn't realistic and makes for more static worlds (and if the over joy at seeing NPC's move around and do things in-game shows us anything, static worlds are not good).

 

- Its a matter of introducing actual danger, and situations that change as to force the character to change his usual tactics and adapt. Should still be able to be completed by the same character, but you should have to do it differently. For instance, a warrior can just charge in and fight some bandits pretty easy. But then if he wants to kill a giant or some bears he'd have to change how he's using his weapons or how he approaches his targets. Taking on a single giant is easy for a warrior to do. Taking on the entire tribe, not so much. As such, the warrior must find a way to take out the giants one by one or indeed, some other solution.

Its not so much a matter of forcing the warrior the stop being a warrior to progress, but more a matter of a making him change how he wages that war. Or not. Nothing's stopping him from charging in anyway, even if the situation says that isn't the most ideal tactic.

 

- Why you ever felt compelled to have athletics and acrobatics at 100 (beyond simply wanting to actually level the skills that is, which doesn't seem to be the case here) is beyond me. IF you don't want to level it then don't.

 

 

 

Kinda because the 18 skills in Skyrim can comfortably achieve what the 30+ skills did in Daggerfall.

 

Why have 30 vague and unbalanced skills when you can have 18 well-detailed and polished skills instead?

Well polished skills? Really?

 

Thing was, you do not use the same techniques with a short blade, as you would a long blade, and certainly not a mace, or an axe...... The skills weren't "vague", they were rather specific to the weapon they governed.

 

Athletics: Determined running/walking speed, etc. How is that vague? I find it more reasonable than EVERYONE having the EXACT same walk/run speed.....

 

Same for acrobatics. (I will grant that it could use some tweaking though....)

 

I am more comparing to Morrowind here than Daggerfall though. Daggerfall also had a selection of language skills, which I never did ever find any real use for.... Yeah, some of the skills in daggerfall WERE useless.

 

Daggerfall suffered the problem of having most of its skills be WAY, way too specific and specialized (language skills, prime example), as well as turning certain mechanics and (what should be) perks into actual skills. (Backstabbing and Critical Strike for instance. Make zero sense as skills)

 

 

[sajuukkhar9000]

-Yes, I know, that's exactly what I just said. So were you agreeing with me or?

-That's also, exactly what I just said, and it makes no sense.

-Then your system is totally pointless as the game wont ever be made berceuses it wouldn't be profitable

-Why can't we just tie the movement direction of the sword to the movement keys like power attacks are now? It would work far better, and work on the consoles.

-Ok.

-Just because a player "succeeds" by selling all the crap he made to other players does not mean the system was designed to be that way.

-And all the systems I have listed don't stand out on their own, and removing them wouldn't hurt role playing at all, which is why I say they should be removed.

Fishing, cooking, weaving, woodcutting, and all like skills, should just be a survival skill, like Fallout has. And really, what type of fishing activities would there be? fishing...... and fishing?

-The difference between 80 ad 90 in a skill CANT be that large, period, or else the game becomes unbalanced. It's the very reason why having 90 in an attribute such as INT, and having 70 in the same attribute, means very little, if they made each point actually do a lot then the PC would become WAY to powerful.

 

-Well, low level content isn't pointless as in because of level scaling, so, I don't really see what needs to be fixed.

 

-

1. Except it kinda does, have you been to High Rock? or even Skyrim? or even Cyrodiil? its all about murder.

2. they would be radiant because, unless the entire game was focused around cooking, it wouldn't be worth the time or effort to make "in depth" cooking quests. Not that cooking involves anything more then "collect ingredients, then cook".

3. Why would I be going down a well to begin with? fish shouldn't be down there. Also, if arrows don't work, I would just go underwater and stab it with a dagger, its just a fish. First I would be questioning the man who catches a fish for the challenge in a middle ages type setting where people hardly have enough money to pay for all the food they need, and secondly, I would just tell him I killed it, and to get over it.

 

-But here is the thing though, they WOULDN'T be fully fleshed out,
skyrim is not an MMO, it doesn't have the budget of an MMO, and most
MMOs fail to flesh out even half of those systems, what your asking for
is impossible, and totally unrealistic.

-
--Arena: chosen hero of the ES who goes around the world, collects the pieces of the staff of chaos, and defeats an evil battlemage Jagar Tharn who had replaced the real emperor and taken over the empire for his nefarious purposes.

--Daggerfall: Chosen hero of the ES who helps rebuild Numidium, find the mantella, and starts a chain of events that causes a dragon break, resulting in multiple simultaneous timelines being created and merged together.

--Oblivion: Chosen hero of the ES who safeguards the amulet of Kings, finds the Emperors heir, protects the cities of cyrodiil from Daedirc invasion, who collects the armor of tiber septim, amongst other mythical objects, to open a portal to paradise, who goes to Mankar's realm to recover the amulet, who then safeguards Martin as he makes his way to the imperial city temple to beat Dagon, who protects Cyrodiil from an invasion by Umaril, and becomes a mad god.

How are any of them NOT world saving heroes?

And if a bad guy can be beat without picking up a weapon, I would question how well written that bad guy is.

 

-I'm not ignoring the context of the system, your context just makes no sense, and is unrealistic.

 

-No, but more realistic NPC/character interactions do, and Skyrim tops Morrowind in this regard in every way. Morrowind lacked a believable world, or characters, all Morrowind had was a bunch of help desk info dump hubs.

 

-It should be forgotten when it serves no purpose anymore, otherwise, you are just blindly holding onto the past because its the system you grew up with, and not because it serves a purpose. anything, and everything, that can be shifted to player skill should. And the lack of character skill has not diminished by character at all, because my character is something I define for myself, as it has always been.

-Attributes lost all connection to the skills the were tied to because they didn't need to be tied to the skill at all.

 

-No, actually, my system does not make the world less alive, it makes it more believable. Having things randomly move into places without and extensive framework of pervious occupants belonging being in the cave to some extent after the new occupants move it only makes the dungeon randomization feel far more obvious, and thus, makes the dungeons feel more fake. Going into a cave with bandits, killing them, and then having bears move in, but all the bandit stuff magically vanish, does not make a believable world. Having a group of bandits take over the cave a previous group of bandit once held however, does feel quite believable.

 

-But see, here's the thing, if people go into a cave, and see a bunch of giants in there, and they cant beat them they way they beat everything else, all they will do is leave, power up, and then attack them when they can kill them like they kill everything else.

 

-I didnt really care, I was pointing out the method that people used to get there.

 

 

 

 

[imperistan]

:facepalm:

 

 

I'm done. I'm not arguing with someone whose going to ignore established facts and definitions, as well as context. Particularly when they're not going to even keep an open mind. (and before you even try to say it, notice how my entire system was designed around approaching a middle ground. Your ideas are far and away from that middle ground)

Edited February 16, 2013 by imperistan

[suger88]

I'm literally stunned by how far this debate has gone...