LE NPCs using Illusion magic

[dukesilver28]

As far as I know, the only NPCs who ever use illusion magic are vampires, and even for them, it's just that invisibility spell they cast when they're fleeing from combat. Enemies, followers, and the like never use fear, calm, or frenzy spells in combat. Maybe getting the AI to work appropriately for casting illusion spells (e.g. recognizing that an enemy is immune to a fear spell and not casting it) was more than Bethesda wanted to handle, but it's very odd that the dragonborn seems to have a monopoly on illusion magic.

 

What would be even more interesting is if the player was actually susceptible to enemies' illusion spells: you get hit with a frenzy spell, for example, and you watch helplessly as your character starts attacking your follower, assuming you're not of high enough level to resist it. Being a vampire would give you a pretty big advantage in this case, since you'd be immune unless the caster has the Master of the Mind perk.

 

Illusion mages could be extremely dangerous and could really add a different type of enemy threat than what we currently have. Just a thought.

[Dacurit]

I know, right? I've been thinking about how this could work for almost as long as I've been playing Skyrim.

 

My thoughts on how the PC could be afflicted by Illusion effects, based on what I know about the game as a mod user, is that the most streamlined and compatible way to make it happen, if it can't happen already, is that if the PC cannot resist the incoming spell, they are overtaken by an A.I. that forces them to behave in a certain way.

 

I feel like I might have experienced an instance of such a thing happening in the game before, though I can't remember specifics. I know that it is possible to have the hero temporarily put under the control of an A.I., but I don't know if vanilla Skyrim can do that for PC Illusion effects.

 

I'll go check.

[Dacurit]

QUOTH MYSELF:

 

"I know that it is possible to have the hero temporarily put under the control of an A.I., but I don't know if vanilla Skyrim can do that for PC Illusion effects.

 

I'll go check."

 

Okay, so the player can technically be afflicted with negative Illusion effects, but Bethesda put in a failsafe to ensure that it doesn't actually do anything even if you are hit by it.

 

I found this out by spawning Lydia next to my PC, taking away her weapons and giving her a fully charged Iron Greatsword of Fear. I then attacked her until she hit me back with the Illusion-enchanted weapon. I saw a blue mist around my screen, indicating some kind of status effect, however I didn't notice anything else different and was still in full control of the Hero. When I opened up the Status Effects menu, I saw that the Hero had in fact been inflicted with Fear, but it was a version of Fear that affected "Creatures and people up to level 0."

 

Before that stunt with Lydia, I tried to do the same with a Bandit Chief. I used console commands to try to equip the weapon on him, but he refused to wear it.

 

So from what I can tell, Bethesda put in three failsafes to ensure that the Hero cannot be taken over by NPC Illusions:

1) A general policy to not have many Illusion-focused NPCs, and when there are, to not give them any actual hostile spells from that school,

2) Some kind of Lobster Trap in the coding that causes enemies to not equip weapons enchanted with Illusion-type effects,

and 3) Nerfing the Illusion effects so that if they are somehow inflicted onto the Player Character, they never actually do anything.

 

That last one really bugs me. Even assuming that you don't want the players to suddenly have their controls locked up as an AI takes them over, you have to take special precautions to make sure that never happens. And if you can change what a status effect does depending on whether it hits the PC or an NPC, then why not make it so that the PC has some kind of negative effect appropriate to the spell inflicted? Why specifically make it so that nothing happens, when you could just make it so that something at least can happen, even if it doesn't happen by default?

 

Ugh, this comment is getting pretty long. I'm sure there can be a pretty elegant solution to this problem, hell I might be able to do it myself. I got an idea...

 

Anyway, with all the mods designed to make the game harder, how is it that nobody who can do anything about it wants to have enemy Illusionists? It's a very simple and reasonable concept that would make encountering hostile mages much more difficult, in a very fair and lore-friendly manner.

[ShylokVakarian]

QUOTH MYSELF:

 

"I know that it is possible to have the hero temporarily put under the control of an A.I., but I don't know if vanilla Skyrim can do that for PC Illusion effects.

 

I'll go check."

 

Okay, so the player can technically be afflicted with negative Illusion effects, but Bethesda put in a failsafe to ensure that it doesn't actually do anything even if you are hit by it.

 

I found this out by spawning Lydia next to my PC, taking away her weapons and giving her a fully charged Iron Greatsword of Fear. I then attacked her until she hit me back with the Illusion-enchanted weapon. I saw a blue mist around my screen, indicating some kind of status effect, however I didn't notice anything else different and was still in full control of the Hero. When I opened up the Status Effects menu, I saw that the Hero had in fact been inflicted with Fear, but it was a version of Fear that affected "Creatures and people up to level 0."

 

Before that stunt with Lydia, I tried to do the same with a Bandit Chief. I used console commands to try to equip the weapon on him, but he refused to wear it.

 

So from what I can tell, Bethesda put in three failsafes to ensure that the Hero cannot be taken over by NPC Illusions:

1) A general policy to not have many Illusion-focused NPCs, and when there are, to not give them any actual hostile spells from that school,

2) Some kind of Lobster Trap in the coding that causes enemies to not equip weapons enchanted with Illusion-type effects,

and 3) Nerfing the Illusion effects so that if they are somehow inflicted onto the Player Character, they never actually do anything.

 

That last one really bugs me. Even assuming that you don't want the players to suddenly have their controls locked up as an AI takes them over, you have to take special precautions to make sure that never happens. And if you can change what a status effect does depending on whether it hits the PC or an NPC, then why not make it so that the PC has some kind of negative effect appropriate to the spell inflicted? Why specifically make it so that nothing happens, when you could just make it so that something at least can happen, even if it doesn't happen by default?

 

Ugh, this comment is getting pretty long. I'm sure there can be a pretty elegant solution to this problem, hell I might be able to do it myself. I got an idea...

 

Anyway, with all the mods designed to make the game harder, how is it that nobody who can do anything about it wants to have enemy Illusionists? It's a very simple and reasonable concept that would make encountering hostile mages much more difficult, in a very fair and lore-friendly manner.

Assume it's hardcoded that way and give up. Props to the devs for thinking of everything.

[Dacurit]

 

Assume it's hardcoded that way and give up. Props to the devs for thinking of everything.

 

 

Wow, that's so helpful, thanks.

 

No, I don't think this is "hardcoded." The fact that the game is singleplayer is hardcoded, and people have found a way or two around that, so why not this?

 

I may have only dipped my toe into the Creation Kit software, but I think I can figure out a little solution to this.

 

What I'm thinking of is taking that last failsafe - the fact that if the PC gets hit with an Illusion effect, nothing happens - and tweaking the effect so that the player gets debuffed in a way appropriate to each mental effect.

 

I mean, it wouldn't integrate Illusion spells and enchantments into the leveled lists for enemies. That would be an entirely different project, but it would be almost meaningless without the above hotfix, so we gotta start somewhere.

 

I'd like to note that I haven't finished or posted any of my own mods yet, so I can not be counted upon to deliver this idea. I'll try myself, but I'd also encourage anyone who wants this to be a thing, to give their own swing at the concept.

[ShylokVakarian]

 

 

Assume it's hardcoded that way and give up. Props to the devs for thinking of everything.

 

 

Wow, that's so helpful, thanks.

 

No, I don't think this is "hardcoded." The fact that the game is singleplayer is hardcoded, and people have found a way or two around that, so why not this?

 

I may have only dipped my toe into the Creation Kit software, but I think I can figure out a little solution to this.

 

What I'm thinking of is taking that last failsafe - the fact that if the PC gets hit with an Illusion effect, nothing happens - and tweaking the effect so that the player gets debuffed in a way appropriate to each mental effect.

 

I mean, it wouldn't integrate Illusion spells and enchantments into the leveled lists for enemies. That would be an entirely different project, but it would be almost meaningless without the above hotfix, so we gotta start somewhere.

 

I'd like to note that I haven't finished or posted any of my own mods yet, so I can not be counted upon to deliver this idea. I'll try myself, but I'd also encourage anyone who wants this to be a thing, to give their own swing at the concept.

 

Sorry, my instincts from back in my Fate: Undiscovered Realms days were kicking in. That series of games had so much bloody hardcoding, you couldn't do much in the way of modding.

 

Anyways, good luck. If the scripts for that isn't in the main .esm, then...well, you've got your work cut out for you.

Edited January 3, 2017 by ShylokVakarian

[NinjaWarriorPoet]

I've been wondering if you could change the look of NPCs. So for Fury, everyone would look like a bandit, so you don't know who to attack. Fear changes them to look like Dremora something that looks scary.

[ShylokVakarian]

I've been wondering if you could change the look of NPCs. So for Fury, everyone would look like a bandit, so you don't know who to attack. Fear changes them to look like Dremora something that looks scary.

Nothing in Skyrim scares a Skyrim player. They be all like "F*** yeah, I can take 'em! Come here, let show you the meaning of Butt Christmas!"

Edited January 4, 2017 by ShylokVakarian

[firepower02]

In Solstheim, there was a part near the tower where the player can't be controlled and forced into an ai package. You can't control the player for a while and he will be like the others mindlessly building the tower.

 

It is possible for the player to be affected by the illusion spells, but the spells will need scripts attached to them that works only specifically for the player while still retaining their original function for using on npcs. Turn off the player's control, and put him into a package that does what the illusion spell intends, then turn on player controls back after the duration.

 

The problem would be, if the player gets hit by an illusion spell, it's like the end. Once the spell expires, he can easily be hit again. It would get annoying not to take control of your character anymore. So, do you really want something like that?

 

I think the idea of changing the look of npcs around to look like your enemies for frenzy spell is more feasible. You don't know who to attack, so you attack everyone. For fear, how about your health and damage is reduced to 1, so obviously you will be afraid to fight.

[NinjaWarriorPoet]

Or maybe the health/stamina/magicaka meters no longer work right. If your health meter read 1, but didn't actually reflect your health. Or it could ravage your stamina and magicka. Frenzy could even boost your stamina and keep your health meter reading 100% even as you get hit, and even killed.