Tried going Stormcloak, and Failed.

[StayFrosty05]

Being captured and sentenced to death for no reason other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time did have me somewhat anti-Imperial and pro-Stormcloak the first time I played through Skyrim. I too escaped with Ralof and killed Imperial Legionnaires and thinking that when the time came I would be joining the Stormcloaks to free Skyrim from the yoke of Imperial/Thalmor oppression.

 

But then I read "The Bear of Markarth", visited Windhelm and Markarth and completed the Diplomatic Immunity quest amongst other things. I am not convinced the xenophobic Stormcloaks are the best thing for Skyrim or for Tamriel.

 

Can someone make an error in judgement and learn later that they may not have made the right choice? Sort of makes the game a bit more "realistic" as life is about choices and we don't always have all the facts and sometimes make decisions on emotions.

It isn't specifically hard to reconcile. You pay the fine or do the time (if you have gotten a bounty for killing a Legion soldier), don't kill any more Legion soldiers and join the Legion side when the time comes and fight hard for the Empire. It's OK to feel bad for killing some Imperials, anyone can make a mistake.

 

I spent my first game running around speaking with absolutely everybody looking for more information on what the Civil War was about and who was who in it....what they were like, what they stood for, etc...every scrap of info I could find and have sided with the Imperials since....Ulfric is an insane and ruthless madman....That said though my Dovah always runs with Ralof in Helgen....reason being, why would he stay with the man who is a soldier in the contingent who just tried to execute him?....So for me, run with Ralof but join the Imperials when I decide to activate the Civil War quest.

 

My Dovah doesn't hold anything against Hadvar....Hadvar wasn't giving the orders, he was only doing what a Soldier does, following his orders....it is made clear Hadvar's not happy about executing a man without trial, but Hadvar doesn't have a say....That said though, it is also clear he is a loyal Soldier and I would think would feel compelled to follow his duty no matter his personal feelings....I see his acquiring of the Prisoner as the first step he would take to returning the Prisoner back to Imperial imprisonment....Hadvar is a good and honorable man, but he is a Soldier and his duty comes first, that's how he strikes me anyway.....Ralof is also a good and honorable man, just a pity he fell for a mad man.

[breakwind]

I can relate to the opening post as I too have made Nord characters with joining the Stormcloaks in mind, but always revert to joining the Legion. I have only finished the Stormcloak quest once and it just didn't feel right. Meeting up with Ulfric in Sovngarde seems to justify that feeling, and I have always felt that Ulfric was nothing more than a Thalmor stooge. People relate the war to the American Civil War, but I reckon it may be closer to the Spanish Civil War, with a Stormcloak victory meaning that Skyrim would be taken out of the equation when the Thalmor battle the Empire again, as a neutral secret Thalmor 'puppet' state....keeping the Nords out of the Legion as it's priority. Well that's what's in my imagination anyway :smile:

[RighthandofSithis]

I can relate to the opening post as I too have made Nord characters with joining the Stormcloaks in mind, but always revert to joining the Legion. I have only finished the Stormcloak quest once and it just didn't feel right. Meeting up with Ulfric in Sovngarde seems to justify that feeling, and I have always felt that Ulfric was nothing more than a Thalmor stooge. People relate the war to the American Civil War, but I reckon it may be closer to the Spanish Civil War, with a Stormcloak victory meaning that Skyrim would be taken out of the equation when the Thalmor battle the Empire again, as a neutral secret Thalmor 'puppet' state....keeping the Nords out of the Legion as it's priority. Well that's what's in my imagination anyway :smile:

 

Well, if you want to make a character join the Stormcloaks, do what I did, look for a firm reason to do so. Perhaps roleplay that you eventually will challenge Ulfric to a duel for the right to rule Skyrim.

 

I don't think the scene where you meet Ulfric in Sovengarde is him admitting to being a Thalmor stooge. It would seem that he regrets Skyrim being torn apart (much like Rikke, if she is encountered in Sovengarde), and recognises that the War is what led the way to Alduin's return.

[LithiumPower]

I'm playing as an imperial hero and though initially I went with Ralof rather than Hadvar, I ignored the civil war in favour of stopping Alduin. Now, finally I am taking sides and at first glance I figured unification and consolidation of the empire was a better objective and signed up with the Imperials. However, having retrieved the Jagged Crown I am in two minds again.

 

The imperials are arrogant, insensitive and exploitative. They have garrisons in all the most prosperous cities, commandeer lumber and metal all the time (Dragonbridge Mill owner's dialogue, Adrienne Avinecci) and have let the Reach get overrun with the Forsworn. Initially I sympathised with Madanach and I helped break him out of prison but in retrospect - the Forsworn are savage, cruel and depraved, cannibalistic and cultish - they really aren't a wholesome, functional tribal society that a reasonable person would want to see flourish. Despite the size of the Empire's military, the obvious wealth of their holds - the countryside is just as overrun with banditry as stormcloak lands. Then the Thalmor which traipse around abducting and torturing people, persecuting and spying with impunity.

 

Except for Balgruuf, the imperial appointed Jarls aren't all that great either - Thonvir is complacent and indolent, Siddgeir is a hedonistic douche, Idgrod is eccentric and indecisive, Maven Black-Briar is a horrible mafia lord, Korrir is better regarded but the people of Winterhold don't feel much has changed which leaves only Briely (in Dawnstar) who yes by all accounts seems more reasonable than Skald but she, like Balgruuf is in the minority.

 

Tullius himself has no regard for Skyrim's people, her culture or her resources . He's comically arrogant and out of touch. Elisef is weak and inexperienced, more interested in fashion and extravagance than safeguarding the interests of her people. Her thanes are all capitalistic and decadent not one shows any interest in the wellbeing of the people. Not to mention all the nords allied with the imperials strike me as completely hypocritical - worshipping Talos in secret and abiding the torture and persecution of their fellows.

 

The imperials don't strike me as a benevolent fatherly entity, protecting the people from the Big Bad Dominion - on the contrary they come across as an imperious, occupying force propping up exploitative Jarls in order to plunder the province's resources, more interested in the upkeep of a crumbling empire than protecting Skyrim's people from their enemies.

 

Having said that, why is Ulfric considered such a bad guy? When we first meet him, we see him reluctant to march on Whiterun or the other holds preferring instead to win over the other Jarls on principle. He cares about Skyrim bleeding men and material, trodden over by Thalmor agents everywhere. The dark elf situation in Windhelm is pretty bad but it's not outright persecution - they are refugees in a city at war- money isn't exactly flowing and yes they are neglected but not persecuted. Niranye is a high elf in Windhelm and happy enough to be there. There is some racial resentment amongst the stormcloaks I admit (Argonians confined to the docks, Khajiit as well but recall these were the races that defected from the Empire in the first place) but there is also a lot of anger at their unfair situation and treatment at the hands of the empire they have fought and died for. In spite of that they do not treat the dragonborn (even without knowing you are indeed dragonborn) intolerantly if you aren't Nord and we do not see them executing people to suppress dissent like the Imperials.

 

He is loved by ordinary nords, admired and respected and generally seems to have his heart in the right place. He's inspiring in person. Try as I might I haven't been able to find any substantial evidence of the alleged personal ambition and vanity he's accused of so often.

 

The Thalmor Dossier - probably the single most important document in the whole game and often touted as irrefutable evidence of his duplicity but what does it actually say?

 

The Thalmor call him an 'asset' - not an agent. Asset implies he's an important piece on their chessboard - a perceived pawn - something they would have intervened to protect at Helgen but why? Not because he's doing their bidding - they admit he is NOT cooperating with them and not in communication - but because it is Thalmor interest to see the Civil War prolonged. Ulfric doesn't want to prolong the Civil War, he just wants the empire and thalmor out. The dossier warns against a stormcloak victory because it would mean them driven out of the province. What the Dominion wants is for Empire to stay in Skyrim and for them to be distracted and weakened fighting Stormcloaks so that they have time to regroup and gain strength. A stormcloak victory is very bad for them - a defeat.

 

The Incident at Markarth and the example of Hammerfell.

 

Ulfric's rebellion began at Markarth when he and his militia retook the city on the behest of the empire on the condition that they would be allowed to worship Talos freely. The empire first agreed and then reneged under pressure from the Thalmor. This is evidence of the empire's duplicity and lack of sincerity - their utter arrogance in the treatment of the nords and it's not an isolated or unprecedented bad decision by one person.

 

Remember what happened to Hammerfell. They were invaded by the Dominion, occupied and after the White Gold Concordat surrendered to the Dominion without so much as their say-so. When they objected and resisted, the empire dissociated themselves from them - abandoned them - renounced them as territory and left them to fend for themselves. This is the empire which we are to believe is going to keep the Dominion out of Skyrim? The Dominion is already IN, stomping up and odwn the countryside, kidnapping and torturing people.

 

In the end, if Hammerfell can kick the Dominion out of their land without the empire, Skyrim can do the same. It's unyielding and inhospital, well protected by mountains on the south and arctic conditions in the north. It's not going to be a cake-walk for the Dominion. Cyrodiil on the other hand is beset (Valenwood, Elsweyr, Blackmarsh) and far more vulnerable to invasion from Summerset. They need Skyrim, it's soldiers and its resources and they are doing everything to keep clutching on to them without giving anything back. It seems they have painted the threat of the Dominion as a boogieman in order to keep people in line and continue siphoning from them.

 

How is an imperial victory in Skyrim the best outcome for the province and it's people?

 

I am playing imperial. I WANT a reason to side with the empire but they're unconscionable. Convince me otherwise!

[breakwind]

I can relate to the opening post as I too have made Nord characters with joining the Stormcloaks in mind, but always revert to joining the Legion. I have only finished the Stormcloak quest once and it just didn't feel right. Meeting up with Ulfric in Sovngarde seems to justify that feeling, and I have always felt that Ulfric was nothing more than a Thalmor stooge. People relate the war to the American Civil War, but I reckon it may be closer to the Spanish Civil War, with a Stormcloak victory meaning that Skyrim would be taken out of the equation when the Thalmor battle the Empire again, as a neutral secret Thalmor 'puppet' state....keeping the Nords out of the Legion as it's priority. Well that's what's in my imagination anyway :smile:

 

Well, if you want to make a character join the Stormcloaks, do what I did, look for a firm reason to do so. Perhaps roleplay that you eventually will challenge Ulfric to a duel for the right to rule Skyrim.

 

I don't think the scene where you meet Ulfric in Sovengarde is him admitting to being a Thalmor stooge. It would seem that he regrets Skyrim being torn apart (much like Rikke, if she is encountered in Sovengarde), and recognises that the War is what led the way to Alduin's return.

 

 

I didn't write that he did admit anything...I just wrote that he seems to justify the feeling I get. Of course I don't believe he is a willing stooge, more like a pawn. After all if he didn't have honour, he probably wouldn't have ended up in Sovngarde. I was just writing my reasons for feeling the same as the OP, I definitely do not want to debate another Stormcloak VS Empire thread again ;)

[CaptainRC]

I mainly stick with the Imperials because of what happens in the beginning. When I listen to the conversation between Ralof and Lokir, the horse thief, Ralof gives me the impression that the Stormcloaks have a crab mentality. In other words, you get caught with them, you die with them whether your guilty of anything or not. Because Lokir had one good point, they could have said something. I could have been a LOT more sympathetic to the Stormcloaks if any one of them other than Ulfric (because I'll admit, Ulfric had a very good reason) had said four simple kindergarten level words: "He's not with us." Just four little words and it would have given me a whole lot better an impression of them, even if they had no effect. But, nope... the ONLY person in the entire situation that showed the prisoner ANY level of genuine sympathy and human compassion was Hadvar... up until the point when Alduin attacked... THEN Ralof seems to care, but it seems to me that he's just being opportunistic... hoping to escape and get another Stormcloak recruit out of the deal. Hadvar, on the other hand, goes out of his way to help the prisoner escape, even though he could have simply abandoned him when Tullius ordered him to leave. At least, this is how I see it. Edited January 22, 2013 by CaptainRC

[Inquart]

Jarl Balgruuf the Greater and Jarl Idgrod Ravencrone, my two favorite Jarls, suffer greatly at the wars conclusion as well as their families if one chooses to fight the Empire.

 

That's true and while I also happen to really like both Balgruuf and Idgrod, I've just realized something quite disturbing about the latter. Does anyone remember that misc quest when Idgrod's bodyguard, Gorm, asks the Dragonborn to deliver a letter to Captain Aldis in Solitude? In that letter and during conversation with Aldis, it is heavily implied that Gorm and Aldis were somehow conspiring to remove Idgrod from power because of her visions and that their plot was stalled in the wake of the civil war, when Idgrod's sympathies towards the Empire were needed. Now, if the Empire wins the civil war, Idgrod will remain in power (as opposed to being deposed and exiled all the way up to Solitude by the Stormcloaks), but what if that's only temporary? What if - after winning the war - the Empire itself (or at least some of its higher officers like Aldis, who in my opinion must have had Tullius' go-ahead for that kind of planning) will remove her from power anyway? I mean, I know that being deposed and removed are two slightly different things, but it's just that as Idgrod's fan I'd like her to stay in power.

[Kayyyleb]

I'm playing as an imperial hero and though initially I went with Ralof rather than Hadvar, I ignored the civil war in favour of stopping Alduin. Now, finally I am taking sides and at first glance I figured unification and consolidation of the empire was a better objective and signed up with the Imperials. However, having retrieved the Jagged Crown I am in two minds again.

 

The imperials are arrogant, insensitive and exploitative. They have garrisons in all the most prosperous cities, commandeer lumber and metal all the time (Dragonbridge Mill owner's dialogue, Adrienne Avinecci) and have let the Reach get overrun with the Forsworn. Initially I sympathised with Madanach and I helped break him out of prison but in retrospect - the Forsworn are savage, cruel and depraved, cannibalistic and cultish - they really aren't a wholesome, functional tribal society that a reasonable person would want to see flourish. Despite the size of the Empire's military, the obvious wealth of their holds - the countryside is just as overrun with banditry as stormcloak lands. Then the Thalmor which traipse around abducting and torturing people, persecuting and spying with impunity.

 

Except for Balgruuf, the imperial appointed Jarls aren't all that great either - Thonvir is complacent and indolent, Siddgeir is a hedonistic douche, Idgrod is eccentric and indecisive, Maven Black-Briar is a horrible mafia lord, Korrir is better regarded but the people of Winterhold don't feel much has changed which leaves only Briely (in Dawnstar) who yes by all accounts seems more reasonable than Skald but she, like Balgruuf is in the minority.

 

Tullius himself has no regard for Skyrim's people, her culture or her resources . He's comically arrogant and out of touch. Elisef is weak and inexperienced, more interested in fashion and extravagance than safeguarding the interests of her people. Her thanes are all capitalistic and decadent not one shows any interest in the wellbeing of the people. Not to mention all the nords allied with the imperials strike me as completely hypocritical - worshipping Talos in secret and abiding the torture and persecution of their fellows.

 

The imperials don't strike me as a benevolent fatherly entity, protecting the people from the Big Bad Dominion - on the contrary they come across as an imperious, occupying force propping up exploitative Jarls in order to plunder the province's resources, more interested in the upkeep of a crumbling empire than protecting Skyrim's people from their enemies.

 

Having said that, why is Ulfric considered such a bad guy? When we first meet him, we see him reluctant to march on Whiterun or the other holds preferring instead to win over the other Jarls on principle. He cares about Skyrim bleeding men and material, trodden over by Thalmor agents everywhere. The dark elf situation in Windhelm is pretty bad but it's not outright persecution - they are refugees in a city at war- money isn't exactly flowing and yes they are neglected but not persecuted. Niranye is a high elf in Windhelm and happy enough to be there. There is some racial resentment amongst the stormcloaks I admit (Argonians confined to the docks, Khajiit as well but recall these were the races that defected from the Empire in the first place) but there is also a lot of anger at their unfair situation and treatment at the hands of the empire they have fought and died for. In spite of that they do not treat the dragonborn (even without knowing you are indeed dragonborn) intolerantly if you aren't Nord and we do not see them executing people to suppress dissent like the Imperials.

 

He is loved by ordinary nords, admired and respected and generally seems to have his heart in the right place. He's inspiring in person. Try as I might I haven't been able to find any substantial evidence of the alleged personal ambition and vanity he's accused of so often.

 

The Thalmor Dossier - probably the single most important document in the whole game and often touted as irrefutable evidence of his duplicity but what does it actually say?

 

The Thalmor call him an 'asset' - not an agent. Asset implies he's an important piece on their chessboard - a perceived pawn - something they would have intervened to protect at Helgen but why? Not because he's doing their bidding - they admit he is NOT cooperating with them and not in communication - but because it is Thalmor interest to see the Civil War prolonged. Ulfric doesn't want to prolong the Civil War, he just wants the empire and thalmor out. The dossier warns against a stormcloak victory because it would mean them driven out of the province. What the Dominion wants is for Empire to stay in Skyrim and for them to be distracted and weakened fighting Stormcloaks so that they have time to regroup and gain strength. A stormcloak victory is very bad for them - a defeat.

 

The Incident at Markarth and the example of Hammerfell.

 

Ulfric's rebellion began at Markarth when he and his militia retook the city on the behest of the empire on the condition that they would be allowed to worship Talos freely. The empire first agreed and then reneged under pressure from the Thalmor. This is evidence of the empire's duplicity and lack of sincerity - their utter arrogance in the treatment of the nords and it's not an isolated or unprecedented bad decision by one person.

 

Remember what happened to Hammerfell. They were invaded by the Dominion, occupied and after the White Gold Concordat surrendered to the Dominion without so much as their say-so. When they objected and resisted, the empire dissociated themselves from them - abandoned them - renounced them as territory and left them to fend for themselves. This is the empire which we are to believe is going to keep the Dominion out of Skyrim? The Dominion is already IN, stomping up and odwn the countryside, kidnapping and torturing people.

 

In the end, if Hammerfell can kick the Dominion out of their land without the empire, Skyrim can do the same. It's unyielding and inhospital, well protected by mountains on the south and arctic conditions in the north. It's not going to be a cake-walk for the Dominion. Cyrodiil on the other hand is beset (Valenwood, Elsweyr, Blackmarsh) and far more vulnerable to invasion from Summerset. They need Skyrim, it's soldiers and its resources and they are doing everything to keep clutching on to them without giving anything back. It seems they have painted the threat of the Dominion as a boogieman in order to keep people in line and continue siphoning from them.

 

How is an imperial victory in Skyrim the best outcome for the province and it's people?

 

I am playing imperial. I WANT a reason to side with the empire but they're unconscionable. Convince me otherwise!

I'll give it a shot. I'm pretty hardcore in favor of the Empire.

 

Both sides of the war are insensitive and exploitative. But while the Empire does control Solitude which is the capital and a port city and thus the richest and Markarth with its silver mines don't forget that the Stormcloaks hold Riften which I would say is in a tie with Markarth for the 2nd wealthiest hold and Windhelm at 3rd. Whiterun is neutral (though Balgruuf leans Imperial) and the other holds are about evenly distributed. There is merit to the claim that the Imperials let the Forsworn ravage the Reach but honestly what do you expect them to do? They're recovering from a devastating war with the Thalmor and at war with the Stormcloaks leaving them spread thin in Skyrim and unable to deal with the additional threat until after the Civil War.

 

You are correct that Tullius isn't the most understanding of Nordic culture but ultimately he'll be irrelevant after the war. He's a general there to represent the Legion and do his job which is win the war, he's not jarl or steward and won't be ruling Skyrim or any of the holds. Elisef is inexperienced to be sure and her thanes are self-interested. But her steward Falk is a good, honorable man and is molding her so I expect that in a few years Elisef will be much like him. The nords who follow Talos and the Empire do it because they understand that the ban is temporary. If the impending 2nd Great War with the Thalmor ends with an Imperial victory the White Gold Concordat will undeniably be revoked and free worship restored. The loyalist Nords understand that the real enemy isn't the Empire, it's the Thalmor and that Skyrim working together with Cyrodiil has a better chance of victory than either does on its own.

 

There are good and bad jarls on both sides, it's unfair to only say the Empire-backed jarls are corrupt or exploitative and then one must realize that some jarls choose not to rule at all in which case it's their steward who really matters.

 

Ulfric is loved by the Stormcloak Nords. Many see him as an imposter who killed the king to advance his own lust for power. Still others have no preference in who wins and only want the war to end one way or another. Ulfric cares only about Ulfric and the Nords. All the other races be damned and this is evident when you talk to the Argonians and Dunmer in Windhelm and the racist tendencies of many Stormcloaks or Ulfric sympathizers. Ulfric claiming to care about Skyrim's bleeding people and resources is a blatant lie. He himself is the single largest source of their suffering because the Civil War was instigated and is maintained by him.

 

Ahhh the Thalmor dossier. The Thalmor explicitly engineered a situation in which Ulfric would be compelled to rebel against the Empire and wage a civil war. The Thalmor pulled his strings even though he may not realize it himself. The Thalmor want the civil war to continue for as long as possible so it will weaken both sides and prior to the Dragonborn's intervention that's exactly the course the war was going. Ultimately the Dragonborn throws a wrench in the Thalmors plans regardless of which side because he/she ends the war decisively for the chosen side within days/weeks instead of a prolonged war over years. However, which outcome hurts them more? The Empire winning and here's why. The Thalmor are playing a classical strategy of divide and conquer. If the Stormcloaks win, drive out the Legion and establish their own independent state they will hold animosity toward the Empire likely for generations and are unlikely to aid the Empire when the next war breaks out leaving the Empire alone and much easier for the Aldmeri Dominion to conquer. This now leaves half of Tamriel under Thalmor control and the 2 remaining provinces are isolated and the Dominion can simply sit back and gather strength to conquer them one by one as the loss of the Empire will break the ties holding the races of men united against the elves. United elves against divided men is easy pickings and exactly the Thalmor's plan. On the other hand, if the Empire wins the Stormcloaks will likely hold animosity and bitterness over the loss but as Rikke says in Windhelm, without a leader they will return home and settle back into their lives under the Empire. However since Skyrim remains an Imperial province when the war begins again the Empire now has 2 provinces from which to draw resources and manpower to fight the Dominion instead of standing alone which greatly improves their odds. The Thalmor don't need communication with Ulfric, they already spun him up and let him go. At this point they're just waiting for him to inadvertently follow through with their plan.

 

Hammerfell thinks it won the battle but they set themselves up to ultimately lose the war. While Hammerfell did eventually fight the Dominion to a standstill they still lost a lot of ground and cannot feasibly hold off the Dominion's vastly superior numbers and resources indefinitely but under Ulfric Skyrim will be making the exact same mistake. Once again, divide and conquer is the Thalmor's game. The Redguards fell into their plan when they seceded. Now the Thalmor are setting their sights on Skyrim to do the same. Once they've cut off Cyrodiil's allies, they'll overwhelm her.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Kayyyleb

[AnimeOtaku102]

Having said that, why is Ulfric considered such a bad guy? [...] I am playing imperial. I WANT a reason to side with the empire but they're unconscionable. Convince me otherwise!

Well, let's give it a shot...

 

When we first meet him, we see him reluctant to march on Whiterun or the other holds preferring instead to win over the other Jarls on principle. He cares about Skyrim bleeding men and material, trodden over by Thalmor agents everywhere. The dark elf situation in Windhelm is pretty bad but it's not outright persecution - they are refugees in a city at war- money isn't exactly flowing and yes they are neglected but not persecuted. Niranye is a high elf in Windhelm and happy enough to be there. There is some racial resentment amongst the stormcloaks I admit (Argonians confined to the docks, Khajiit as well but recall these were the races that defected from the Empire in the first place) but there is also a lot of anger at their unfair situation and treatment at the hands of the empire they have fought and died for. In spite of that they do not treat the dragonborn (even without knowing you are indeed dragonborn) intolerantly if you aren't Nord and we do not see them executing people to suppress dissent like the Imperials.

For this point, I would say it's because his actions speak louder than words. He speaks of honor, of the suffering of Nords, and the injustices of the Empire, but what has he actually done? He caused the Civil War by murdering Torygg, his High King, despite the few accounts we're given of the man indicating he would have sided with Ulfric had he been asked; instead he divided the country just to make a point. This happens again when Balgruuf challenges Ulfric to a duel: instead of accepting it, which would have minimized losses and kept the Legion out of Whiterun, he forced Balgruuf into accepting Imperial "assistance" by turning it into a siege - just to prove another point.

 

One could argue that this is simply the culture that Ulfric exists in, or that his training and experience as a warrior biases him toward such actions (though obviously not his training with the Greycloaks), but if his concern truly is his people and not personal honor or ambition, then some of his major decisions are very questionable.

 

I would also like to add that the Legion hasn't executed "dissidents" either. Aside from Tullius' overzealous attempt to execute everyone within spitting distance of Ulfric, which would have incurred the collateral damage of one Dragonborn and one horse thief, we have only observed them execute a gate guard who willfully failed his duty by letting his king's killer go; beyond that, the most aggressive act the Legion has taken against dissidents is a sloppy attempt at buying the Silver-Bloods' mines.

 

Additionally, if you believe Braig's story in "No One Escapes Cidhna Mine" and the book "The Bear of Markarth" (by an Imperial scholar), Ulfric supposedly ordered the execution of everyone who didn't openly resist the Forsworn, so he wouldn't be innocent of executing dissidents and causing a lot of collateral damage either. Those sources may be biased, so they can be taken with a grain of salt.

 

He is loved by ordinary nords, admired and respected and generally seems to have his heart in the right place. He's inspiring in person.

Not exactly true, outside of Windhelm there are only a handful of Nords who aren't Jarl supporters who praise Ulfric. The Greymanes, the Snow-Shods (except their son), the Silver-bloods, the brothers Solaf and Bolund, and Roggvir. The majority of NPCs simply don't seem to care, or if they do it's just general dislike toward the civil war itself rather than blind support for the Empire.

 

Try as I might I haven't been able to find any substantial evidence of the alleged personal ambition and vanity he's accused of so often.

 

The Thalmor Dossier - probably the single most important document in the whole game and often touted as irrefutable evidence of his duplicity but what does it actually say?

 

The Thalmor call him an 'asset' - not an agent. Asset implies he's an important piece on their chessboard - a perceived pawn - something they would have intervened to protect at Helgen but why? Not because he's doing their bidding - they admit he is NOT cooperating with them and not in communication - but because it is Thalmor interest to see the Civil War prolonged. Ulfric doesn't want to prolong the Civil War, he just wants the empire and thalmor out. The dossier warns against a stormcloak victory because it would mean them driven out of the province. What the Dominion wants is for Empire to stay in Skyrim and for them to be distracted and weakened fighting Stormcloaks so that they have time to regroup and gain strength. A stormcloak victory is very bad for them - a defeat.

It doesn't just call him an asset, it also makes very clear references to direct contact being made and lasting until after the Markarth incident, at which point he only became "generally uncooperative to direct contact." This doesn't mean he was an agent, however this does cast his actions in Markarth in an unfavorable light for three reasons: 1) his actions were beneficial to the Thalmor agenda (as it allowed them to force the Empire to enforce the WGC), 2) he is the only known Thalmor contact related to the Markarth Incident (the swiftness of the Thalmor's reaction suggests they were informed), and 3) his unexplained release after being arrested for Thalos worship (the Thalmor take custody of suspected heretics from the Legion, yet they don't with a Jarl?).

 

Clearly Ulfric's relationship soured with the Thalmor after the Markarth Incident for whatever reason, so we can say he's definitely not an agent now; however we can observe his actions continued to benefit the Thalmor agenda, which either indicates he never suspected why he was released (if he truly wasn't colluding with the Thalmor) or he simply doesn't care.

 

The Incident at Markarth and the example of Hammerfell. [...] How is an imperial victory in Skyrim the best outcome for the province and it's people?

I've argued this before and it really can be interpreted in two ways: the first is, obviously, the Empire chickened out and washed their hands of Hammerfell, hoping not to be dragged into the battle. The second is that by letting Hammerfell leave, the Empire no longer had to send the remnants of the Legion in to enforce the WGC, thus Hammerfell's soldiers only had to fight the Dominion forces rather than combined Dominion and Imperial forces.

 

The argument following that interpretation would be "if that's the case, then why didn't the Empire capitalize on the breather and clean up the Dominion?" Well, I don't know. Maybe in the time they wanted to rebuild their army for a second offensive the Thalmor sabotaged Cyrodiil by using "assets" like Saadia and Ulfric, thus delaying the effort long enough to ruin the timing. Maybe the Empire wanted the Dominion and Hammerfell to fully exhaust their resources, build up their own forces, and reclaim both provinces by force, but that scenario never played out as they hoped. I don't think the reason particularly matters because it's purely speculative, but the same can be said about the speculation behind why they let Hammerfell go in the first place.

 

Now this isn't an argument to say that an Imperial victory is the best outcome, just that there isn't really anything to say it would be worse than a Stormcloak victory.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Anime_Otaku102

[AnimeOtaku102]

[...] commandeer lumber and metal all the time (Dragonbridge Mill owner's dialogue, Adrienne Avinecci)

I just realized something, but Adrianne Avenicci is the blacksmith in Whiterun. The one who owns the lumber mill in Dragon Bridge is Horgeir, but he says business is as great as ever. You might be thinking of Azzada Lylvieve, but his lines are actually:

 

"Both the Imperials and the Stormcloaks have sent riders this way, scouting the bridge and the lands nearby. They stayed at the inn, but didn't pay. They said soldiers don't need to pay because they're risking their lives to protect us. And that's not all. They took a heap of our lumber, and one tried to have his way with my daughter. They think they can do whatever they want."

 

He doesn't say which side took the lumber or harassed his daughter, but doesn't favor either side in his dislike.