use of suggestive debate topic title

[Shadowheart328]

 

I've been trying to find a way to be nice with my response but I can't help you. I will forgive you your personal attacks as I see you are clearly emotionally tied to this topic and it has affected your ability to reason. I will not be bothering you again with trivialities such as "That is not an argument" or "your assertion relies on a assumption based on supposition". You clearly believe that everything an authority tells you is true and that in no instance would any agency supported by Government mislead you in any way.

 

 

I hope your blind faith in Government and those it supports proves to be beneficial to you in the future.

 

It's like you ignored all of the proof of people more educated than both of us telling everyone that quarantine works. Like you can't have it both ways, you can't say you need to be a virologist to answer your question, and then when given proof and quotes of Virologists answering your question ignore that and say they are lying. I mean for someone who loves to use fallacies and sound like a good debater, you just used the begging the question fallacy yourself: "The government always lies, so anything said by someone working for the government is a lie."

 

I seriously can't believe this is the argument your making, like you so clearly have nothing to back up your own statements so when pushed in a corner because I provided evidence to back up my claims, you just resort to the old: You've been lied to.

 

Well prove it. I already did my burden of proof, your turn. Prove I'm being lied to, otherwise stop making up things and spreading dangerous misinformation about a topic and concept you have no actual knowledge on.

[Shadowheart328]

But we HAVEN'T stopped it from spreading. The numbers are still off the board. I note that the republican convention was blames for a spike in numbers, but, no one talks about what is happening after all the protest marches. Isn't that interesting.

 

We CAN'T stop the spread. We can slow it down some, and that's it. And maybe not even that........ We are still going to end up with the same number of infections. We *might* reduce the body count some, but, that is the best we can hope for. The whole idea behind the quarantine/lockdown/whathaveyou was to SLOW the spread, so hospitals weren't overwhelmed with patients all at once.

 

Currently, we don't have a vaccine, so, slowing the spread is ALL we can do. Of course, by doing so, we are doing horrid things to our economy...... there are going to be a large number of businesses that simply don't re-open when all is said and done. Recovery is going to take YEARS. Not to mention what it's doing to the national debt....... Although, I really didn't see the point of giving everyone on unemployment an extra 600 bucks a WEEK.... For a significant percentage of them, they are making more on unemployment, than they were when they were working.... What motivation are they going to have to actually go back to work, once the opportunity presents itself? Heck, I don't make 2400 dollars a month...... I would LOVE to be able to collect unemployment. (my job was considered 'essential', so, I still have work once in a while. But, I was part time anyway, so, I don't think I qualified. )

Ask yourself why we aren't stopping the spread. It's not because quarantines don't work, it's because we waited way to late to start quarantining. The president you elected, decided that instead of quarantining all of the countries that were affected by Covid, he was only going to quarantine China, for basically political reasons. That came back to bite us because as it turns out most of the spreading in America came from those returning from or touring from Europe. Then in month between banning Europe after banning China we did absolutely nothing, implemented no quarantines, and just let it spread. The whole point of an effective quarantine is to do it ASAP and be strict about. It's effectiveness is only as good as its implementation. We implemented it poorly and thus it isn't working out well.

 

But here's the cool thing, we can see the data for this stuff in real time, and you know what that data shows us. States that practiced heavier and stricter quarantine and lockdowns ended up reducing both the spread and cases of the disease. Like, just read the news and follow the data, everything you need to know about how effective quarantine and lockdown is can be inferred from there.

 

About your second point, yes. That's the unfortunate side effect of a global pandemic, people and businesses are going to suffer. But you know what? Recovery is going to happen, it's a given. Will it take time? Yes. Will some people be left worst off financially than before? Yes. But economies can be fixed, you know what's permanent? Death.

 

You're also acting like the unemployment extras are going to continue after Covid is no longer considered a pandemic and people are are able to get back to work. It's not a permanent thing, it's a temporary solution to people unable to work or fired during a national pandemic so that they can still provide for their families. Acting like people are suddenly not going to want to continue working just because they are collecting unemployment is a disingenuous argument with no data backing it up. The whole reason that extra money was given is because typical unemployment benefits received were way to low to help people affected by the pandemic. So yes, in some cases people are going to make more money than they did in their regular jobs, but this PUA is temporary, it was going to end in July but got extended to January (I think), these people aren't going to be able to rely on it forever. But just taking it away will probably have a higher negative impact on the economy than keeping it going a while longer.

[xrayy]

i thank you all for debating or at least trying to do so. i don't know if some of you here are a victim of conspiracy theorists or if the conspiracy theorists are victims of you let them think their crude theories are right.

 

shadowheart and i try to give some valuable information underlined and confirmed with links while some of you seem to ignore that. i can not see that you read any of this content or try to deal with it in this debate. you still have the chance to do so and you are welcome instead of spreading crude stuff to somehow defend whats going wrong dealing with covid 19 in the u.s..

 

so sad as it is, people doing nothing or defending leaders who do nothing are part of the problem in your country. it would even help to stop posting crude stuff, not seriously proved by anyone but by conspiracy theorists.

 

coming back to my topic:

1.people who open debates with suggestive topic title do it often just to show in the debate their already unalterable point of view before the debate even starts. this point seems to me confimed at least no one contradicts.

 

2. ignoring official naming in a debate (title) like using chinese virus instead of covid 19 disease or SARS-CoV-2 is probably not a coincidence but a well chosen way to show ignorance or something else (like saying it is the trump virus or the heyyou virus) just to distract from what is important.

 

3. 'communism is a bad word' is not just an assumption but can be treated as common in english forums (as perraine says). i was not aware of that.

[Shadowheart328]

Sorry for my part in pulling this thread of topic, to get back on it:

My take on it is, that suggestive titles are okay in my book for a few reasons.

1. If the goal is to get people who normally wouldn't debate to engage in discussion then click bait could be a good thing.

2. It helps weed out serious from non-serious debates. If the title has a stupid premise, then you know it's not a debate worth having.


My main issues with bad debates aren't the suggestive titles, it's the people who frame an opinion as a fact, assert than anyone who doesn't conform to said opinion is lying, and then ignores any facts that contradict said opinion. Basically people who don't actually want to debate but just affirm their views with other like-minded individuals. But click bait titles are fine in my opinion.

[HeyYou]

 

But we HAVEN'T stopped it from spreading. The numbers are still off the board. I note that the republican convention was blames for a spike in numbers, but, no one talks about what is happening after all the protest marches. Isn't that interesting.

 

We CAN'T stop the spread. We can slow it down some, and that's it. And maybe not even that........ We are still going to end up with the same number of infections. We *might* reduce the body count some, but, that is the best we can hope for. The whole idea behind the quarantine/lockdown/whathaveyou was to SLOW the spread, so hospitals weren't overwhelmed with patients all at once.

 

Currently, we don't have a vaccine, so, slowing the spread is ALL we can do. Of course, by doing so, we are doing horrid things to our economy...... there are going to be a large number of businesses that simply don't re-open when all is said and done. Recovery is going to take YEARS. Not to mention what it's doing to the national debt....... Although, I really didn't see the point of giving everyone on unemployment an extra 600 bucks a WEEK.... For a significant percentage of them, they are making more on unemployment, than they were when they were working.... What motivation are they going to have to actually go back to work, once the opportunity presents itself? Heck, I don't make 2400 dollars a month...... I would LOVE to be able to collect unemployment. (my job was considered 'essential', so, I still have work once in a while. But, I was part time anyway, so, I don't think I qualified. )

Ask yourself why we aren't stopping the spread. It's not because quarantines don't work, it's because we waited way to late to start quarantining. The president you elected, decided that instead of quarantining all of the countries that were affected by Covid, he was only going to quarantine China, for basically political reasons. That came back to bite us because as it turns out most of the spreading in America came from those returning from or touring from Europe. Then in month between banning Europe after banning China we did absolutely nothing, implemented no quarantines, and just let it spread. The whole point of an effective quarantine is to do it ASAP and be strict about. It's effectiveness is only as good as its implementation. We implemented it poorly and thus it isn't working out well.

 

But here's the cool thing, we can see the data for this stuff in real time, and you know what that data shows us. States that practiced heavier and stricter quarantine and lockdowns ended up reducing both the spread and cases of the disease. Like, just read the news and follow the data, everything you need to know about how effective quarantine and lockdown is can be inferred from there.

 

About your second point, yes. That's the unfortunate side effect of a global pandemic, people and businesses are going to suffer. But you know what? Recovery is going to happen, it's a given. Will it take time? Yes. Will some people be left worst off financially than before? Yes. But economies can be fixed, you know what's permanent? Death.

 

You're also acting like the unemployment extras are going to continue after Covid is no longer considered a pandemic and people are are able to get back to work. It's not a permanent thing, it's a temporary solution to people unable to work or fired during a national pandemic so that they can still provide for their families. Acting like people are suddenly not going to want to continue working just because they are collecting unemployment is a disingenuous argument with no data backing it up. The whole reason that extra money was given is because typical unemployment benefits received were way to low to help people affected by the pandemic. So yes, in some cases people are going to make more money than they did in their regular jobs, but this PUA is temporary, it was going to end in July but got extended to January (I think), these people aren't going to be able to rely on it forever. But just taking it away will probably have a higher negative impact on the economy than keeping it going a while longer.

 

And I haven't heard the fat lady sing yet.

 

We are still right in the middle of the pandemic. Sure, quarantines SLOW the spread of the disease, but, will never STOP it. The disease isn't going to go away either. When quarantine is lifted/relaxed, we are going to see the numbers go up again. We still don't have a vaccine. In the end, the same number of folks are going to be infected. By slowing the spread, we *might* save a few lives.... but, that is one of those things we will never be able to measure.

 

Trump is talking about signing an order to extend the unemployment benefits thru the end of the year. Then what? We are still going to be in the midst of the pandemic, and folks still won't be going back to work. Will they get extended again? And once the quarantine is lifted, how many of those folks are actually going to have jobs to go back to? The current unemployment rate is north of 13%.... which is significantly higher than it was during 'the great recession of 07-09... (10.6%)

 

Do I have a solution? Nope. Should we drop the quarantine now, and try and save what's left of our economy? Probably not a good idea..... So, where does that leave us? Essentially, we get to look forward to a recovery from a downturn worse than the great recession. Once some of the measures preventing banks/landlords from filing on all those folks that haven't been paying rent/mortgage payments....... things are going to get even worse.... It will make the bursting of the housing bubble back in 08 look like a party in the park. (hopefully, everyone will be wearing their masks......)

 

Yep. It's gonna suck. It will likely take years to recover, and that assumes we don't get another round of covid. (we REALLY need a vaccine....)

 

So, prepare now, and be ready for what we KNOW is coming.

[vegawagon350]

 

 

I've been trying to find a way to be nice with my response but I can't help you. I will forgive you your personal attacks as I see you are clearly emotionally tied to this topic and it has affected your ability to reason. I will not be bothering you again with trivialities such as "That is not an argument" or "your assertion relies on a assumption based on supposition". You clearly believe that everything an authority tells you is true and that in no instance would any agency supported by Government mislead you in any way.

 

 

I hope your blind faith in Government and those it supports proves to be beneficial to you in the future.

 

It's like you ignored all of the proof of people more educated than both of us telling everyone that quarantine works. Like you can't have it both ways, you can't say you need to be a virologist to answer your question, and then when given proof and quotes of Virologists answering your question ignore that and say they are lying. I mean for someone who loves to use fallacies and sound like a good debater, you just used the begging the question fallacy yourself: "The government always lies, so anything said by someone working for the government is a lie."

 

I seriously can't believe this is the argument your making, like you so clearly have nothing to back up your own statements so when pushed in a corner because I provided evidence to back up my claims, you just resort to the old: You've been lied to.

 

Well prove it. I already did my burden of proof, your turn. Prove I'm being lied to, otherwise stop making up things and spreading dangerous misinformation about a topic and concept you have no actual knowledge on.

 

Seriously, begging the question and false appeal to authority are not arguments or proof. I defaulted to the only position that makes sense when dealing with zealots, leave them to their delusions. However, since you persist I will explain it to you like I would a child so that you have a clear understanding of how your Proof doesn't even remotely touch an any way the realm of anything scientific or reality.

 

I did not ask you to provide me another internet person's explanation of a Virus I asked you to Prove Your Assertion. This was unfair of me as I know you personally can not provide proof because you are in fact not a virologist. A paper or article that YOU did not produce, that YOU did not apply scientific method to, that YOU did not in fact have any part of is not Proof of a virus it IS a false appeal to authority and Begging the question.

 

Your False Appeal explained: You believe without question that a group of Science Guys provided you with a scientifically valid article explaining said Virus with ZERO checking, on your part, of whether or not the science is sound, accurate, or repeatable via the scientific method. (BTW a Model is not science it is math which graphs what you input to it, which is still not technically science)

 

Your Begging the Question: You assume Virus, You have ZERO idea what a virus is, how it is identified and what the difference is physically and property wise between one Virus and another.

 

Since you clearly don't understand how this works I will explain. This is how you confirm your assertion (Hypothesis) using science not NEWS or ARTICLES or Begging the Question with someone else work.

 

You make a claim: A Hypothesis if you will (Or an observable phenom)

You then define that Claim and assign a Dependent Variable (This is what you think makes it happen)

You then Attempt to replicated the effect using an external variable measure (This is called an Independent Variable)

You see if the manipulated outcome is the same as the original phenom

You confirm it the Hypothesis or you don't

 

This is how proof works If you don't have the ability to do the Science then you can not ever know if the outcome you are seeing is in any way shape or form the cause of the phenom. It is the basis for deductive reasoning and required when YOU make an assertion.

 

TL; DR version:

 

You can not prove Virus. You can not prove that a virus spreads, You can not prove a virus has killed or infected anyone during this "Pandemic" because you do not have the means to independently isolate, test, measure and influence said virus to produce a predictable, and repeatable result. Therefore you are talking out of you butt about things you have no idea about.

 

BTW, I make no assertions I challenge your assertions which requires Zero proof on my end.

 

Like I said I can't help you

[MrJoseCuervo]

China was the focus for a reason:

 

 

 

 

https://news.yahoo.com/suspected-sars-virus-and-flu-found-in-luggage-fbi-report-describes-chinas-biosecurity-risk-144526820.html

[xrayy]

vegawagon, we all have an idea how a virus works (i really hope so) and it is not necessary to be one of the sars2-cov specialists to understand some basic rules how to fight a virus pandemic. because it is not the first time we did it and that this virus was not just fun was evident since wuhan.

so everybody - including the u.s. president, not only europe and asia - could have known not later than march what probably would happen if nothing is done but praying. so the preseident prayed a few month. ok ?

so i don't know why you wirite stuff like a chinese or russian troll. sorry. it is just exhausting to read this because you are just a destroyer instead of confirming or making valuable contributions to this debate or the discussed problem.

i think everyone understand what you say even if it does not bring us foward but i'm really not sure if you even tried to understand what others say. you debate about facts which are crystal clear and proven since march 2020. many details have to be added in this puzzle to get a full picture - sure. but everybody knows since march that if he gets contaminated he has a chance to die or to suffer from long term illness.

so since march everybody could have known what will happen. europe and asia checked that more or less and even many or even most people in the u.s.

and the u.s president and his blind followers ? do they need more evidence or to attend an educational event learning how to fight a virus pandemic with a significant death rate or what ?

for a serious leader this is just sad and FOUR month too late even if he is so intelligent that he can safely identify an elephant in a test sheet.

[vegawagon350]

vegawagon, we all have an idea how a virus works (i really hope so) and it is not necessary to be one of the sars2-cov specialists to understand some basic rules how to fight a virus pandemic. because it is not the first time we did it and that this virus was not just fun was evident since wuhan.

so everybody - including the u.s. president, not only europe and asia - could have known not later than march what probably would happen if nothing is done but praying. so the preseident prayed a few month. ok ?

so i don't know why you wirite stuff like a chinese or russian troll. sorry. it is just exhausting to read this because you are just a destroyer instead of confirming or making valuable contributions to this debate or the discussed problem.

i think everyone understand what you say even if it does not bring us foward but i'm really not sure if you even tried to understand what others say. you debate about facts which are crystal clear and proven since march 2020. many details have to be added in this puzzle to get a full picture - sure. but everybody knows since march that if he gets contaminated he has a change to die or to suffer from long term problems.

so since march everybody could have known what will happen. europe and asia ckecked that more or less and even many or even most people in the u.s.

and the u.s president and his blind followers ? do they need more evidence or to attend an educational event learning how to fight a virus pandemic with a significant death rate or what ?

You misunderstand my intent. I am not a Troll Russian or Otherwise. The very basis of debate is to challenge the ideas that are being presented. I challenge your presupposition that a virus is is responsible for all of the turmoil in the world, It is therefore your responsibility to prove your assertion, not mine. I make no claims as to what it is, why it is happening or what the cause is. I simply ask that you support your position with empirical evidence that YOU have generated via the scientific method (not anyone else's/person/lab/scientist's work or papers because those aren't yours) that proves you know;

1. A Virus is what you say it is

2. The "Virus" actually makes people sick and can be transmitted between persons

3. You don't know and you are just taking the word of NEWS, Fauci, or science and have no idea what it is, how it works, how it spreads or if it is even responsible.

 

Super simple right?

 

YOUR LOGIC FALLACIES DEFINED:

You Presuppose (This means you take on blind faith that the information you read online is true)

You Beg the Question (This means you take on assumption that the evidence has no other definition or explanation because you haven't been told otherwise or even bothered to investigate)

You have Confirmation Bias (This means you take the answer and build questions and find evidence that supports that answer)

You have no idea that Debate has a structure defined by rules (This means you present an unfounded argument with no actual knowledge of the source material and then try to make the other side prove a negative in an attempt to "Gotcha win")

You Assert the Claim - Simply put I don't believe you know anything about Virus, Germ Theory, or how disease spreads beyond what you are told and you have no means to actually prove your assertions because you have no interest in testing the source material and making your own educated discoveries and then comparing them to what Science has done up to now.

 

 

NOTE: You would expect this same level of proof of a person asserting the existence of an all powerful supreme deity, I expect the same level of proof for your science.

 

 

-- The enemy of knowing is belief

[Perraine]

What I find most interesting is that Epidemiologists and Medical Doctors (you know the ones who train for years to learn how to FIGHT sickness) who were trying to stand up against the disgusting, and destructive narrative perpetuated by the MSM and parroted by certain, sadly ignorant people here, had their video struck down as "false information", were banned from Social Media sites, and one even lost their Job.

 

The fact that a treatment is available which virtually eliminates the death risk, with THOUSANDS of test subjects for verification, and the backing of DOZENS of Scientific and Medical professionals is called a "lie" because Trump said it. The fact that an ENTIRE COUNTRY, advised by a leading Epidemiologists, never violated basic human rights and freedoms, and never locked down is now virtually free of the illness.

 

There is some blame to lay at Trump's feet, but only that he actually listened to the parasitic CCP sycophants running the WHO, and to a Dr, who's only concern is getting his next research grant. The same ones, who have done a complete 180 in their "advice" three times that I'm aware of, depending on the current agenda being pushed by the MSM and the CCP.