How can anybody srsly play as a Vampire Hunter?

[Niklass]

I'm currently playing Dawnguard again as a vampire after taking a break due to the boringness that is the Soul Cairn (which is another forum thread worth of ranting) I was reminded of this thread. I really enjoyed reading all the new responses.

 

I actually ended my "vampire hunter" playthrough when I met Valerica in the Soul Cairn because she said her Elder Scroll and Serana's blood was needed to complete the prophecy. I told Serana to wait, left the Soul Cairn and in my mind sealing the portal and destroying all evidence that could ever open it again effectively solving the prophecy issue. A quite satisfying ending to a frustrating story.

 

Aye, the thread devolved into a bit of a whine. Sorry, my bad; I started that. I kind of broadened the scope of the discussion. But in my defense, I did so to try and snipe at a more root cause. I get something of a nerdgasm from analyzing game mechanics and how players react to them.

We are very much alike in that regard.

 

I guess it's actually an on-going theme in Skyrim plots. Don't want to sacrifice your eternal soul to a Daedric Prince for the good of a certain guild? Quest limbo. Not keen on being a werewolf? Quest limbo. Personal sacrifice loses a lot of narrative power in those situations. The plot railroad, which I generally have nothing against, suddenly becomes uncomfortably obvious.

Basically, I'm fine with Skyrim not offering me choices. Just don't design your stories in such a way that the narrative begs a different path. The Civil War situation again: the game goes out of its way to make you attached to Whiterun. Jarl Balgruuf is intensionally one of the most (if not THE most) likable Jarls in the game. Of course people are going to not want to attack it. Likewise, the very origin of this thread: Isran yells at you for how stupid it is to take Serana to her father with an Elder Scroll. How is it not at all a thought that maybe your players might just come to a similar conclusion and just want to kill the vampire? And my vampire situation: Was it really necessary to check that I was a vampire, after you'd basically let me be one for several missions and the Dawnguard is buddy buddy with another vampire? Why are the checks even there? Most of the quests are on rails, and that's fine, until those moments make you aware of them.

 

I'm glad I wasn't the only one that thought those were outrageous. You raise an interesting point that backs up my previous suggestion on how to fix my issues with the quest. I didn't ask for numerious choices with branching stories all I wanted was for it to make sense.

 

I think the problem comes with player expectations. When a player decides to enter a faction he also enters a contract with the designer stating that you are fine with doing the things this faction is known for. I don't complain when the Dark Brotherhood sends me to kill people and I just want to talk to them. I joined the faction knowing full well what to expect. When you join the Companions thinking you would be a hearty warrior/mercenary and are forced to become a werewolf with no alternative the designer breaks the contract. This is even worse with the Thieves Guild as the break happens in the last third.

 

There really are so many quests that I just abandoned because they didn't give me options that were acceptable with my character. The House of Horrors in Markarth comes to mind. You can only save the priest to send him to his death there is no hey don't go in there it's a trap or I'm going to help you. Also a quest that starts with you helping someone to rid a house of deadra and ends with you killing a priest trying to do just that. This mod changes that.

 

It's all the more surprising when they give you a choice on how to deal with the Dark Brotherhood that was one of my favorite moments of the game. I'm really of two minds wether the game became the way it is due to time constraints or because they made the game for people who follow quest markers and do exactly as they are told . Does this quest only conclude this way because it is the obvious solution that gives you the daedric reward and who would choose to sacrifice the reward just for the sake of RP? I really like Skyrim but I worry for the next game because I don't like where this is going.

Edited December 29, 2013 by Niklass

[YX33A]

 

On the topic of Skyrim being undeserving of being called an RPG, the term RPG means something very different for video games then it does for actual games.

And on the topic of there not being any game out there that allows for dynamic content that adapts to anything they player does, there is actually plenty of them; Tabletop RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons. The magic is that there is a Human Intelegence that can change things as needed.

 

That being said, not knowing what an elder scroll is for a RP is very weird to me. They aren't common, no, tend to be horded by the Imperial City and their Moth Priests, yes, but they are still artefacts from beyond time and space(basically). It's not a big stretch that due to how the Grey Maybe was formed that everyone insticively recognizes them, or even that we recognize at least that this is a object that should not be^TM and whatnot.

 

But on the actual RP bit, in a video game, you have to be more fast and loose with your RP because Dialog isn't as easy to add to modern games as it was for games like Morrowind. In Morrowind all dialog was text in a box. One could easily add or change anything anyone said due to this. Now actual voice actors are needed to add even one line to one person, even if that line is actually just a pained grunt.

 

I'd almost suggest that Bethesda make a game with modern needs(looks great, has a plot in the game itself, etc) but uses Morrowind's dialog system with more features. No voices outside of combat.

 

I've oft wondered how a text game would do these days if we made one modern enough. How the original Final Fantasy would fare if we remade it with todays graphics but nothing else. Things like that interest me.

 

 

 

As for hating Vampires, my character generally joins the Dawnguard for one reason; the attacks on Cities being too much in his eyes. I wouldn't mind if I could convince Isran to at least Tolerate me as a vampire, but the thing is, he doesn't even tolerate Serana. She is just an asset until the questline is completed. After that point he would likely have killed her if not for the fact that she did prevent the end of the world by helping you kill Harkon.

 

To OP: You hate Vampires in your RP, yes? Isran hates them more. Even he has some sympathy when she kills her dad. Yeah, she is very much a vampire, but then again, killing out of hate and nothing more isn't good. Hate burns too hot to last. A character must grow beyond his origins to truly grow. Perhaps the fact that you have to ally yourself with a Monster to save the world is enough.

 

Curing her means nothing to me, either. I'd rather just never see her again if I had the choice. I mean, neither the Dawnguard or the other guys had a great plan I'd say. Harkon was mearly trying to fufill some poor doomed bastards revenge plot that in reality only works for a day before wearing off(not to mention without extra mods does nothing more then increase the amount of vampire attacks on towns), and the dawnguard had NO plan. Then again, Evil Acts, Good Reacts. Ever notice that? The "Bad Guys" have some big plan and work towards it always(if they can, anyway), and the "Good Guys" only end up trying to spot and stop the plans? Almost always ends up with a bunch of "Good Guys" storming the lair of the "Bad Guys" and killing *everyone* inside.

 

In the end, I only felt any emotion for one charater in Dawnguard; that second Snow Elf who we have to kill. I mean, being abandonded is one thing, but by your god? At no fault of your own just thrown away like trash? That Feel, Bro.

 

Even though I try to avoid any and all "Sell your soul to advance the plot" questlines in games in general, at least in Skyrim I can give all the gods I'm selling my soul to the finger by becoming a Lich and never dying.

 

I always love having choice. Even if it's the Red Pill or the Blue Pill, I like having that choice. Of course, nothing is really stoping one from taking both pills at once. Or just walking away. And so on.

Nothing but the script. And we all have to say our lines and do what we are told in that case.

 

So relish in the fact that you can chose either the Red Pill or the Blue Pill(and nothing else), because at least you have a choice. Even if it means nothing in the end, it's very fufilling.

 

Besides, if the story requires someone to live or die, we usually can't change that. Least of all in the Elder Scrolls where magic is very VERY real and gods do exist. Just because our character isn't fated to do anything(no fate and whatnot) it's not a big deal in the end.

Unlike in Kingdoms of Almur: Reckoning, where the fact that you have no fate is a AMAZINGLY big deal according to the plot. I mean, in the lore everyone has a fate, which is why fortune telling is so easy and effective. It's not some scam like in Reality, you are actually seeing their future. The fact that it's done with what basically amounts to Tarot Cards means it's actually kind of vauge, but still, it works, and one can even perfectly predict how and when one will die decades before it will happen.

 

Then the main characte dies and is ressurected and all that "Fate is Unbreakable and Unavoidable" s#*! goes right out the window. And anyone who realizes that you have not fate is allowed to s#*! bricks and call you a freak of nature, because it's the only sane response(and you rightly are one seeing as everyone and everything has a fate in that game's lore).

 

Long post spoiler'd. Tl; Dr, be flexible with your RP as you will ALWAYS face a dialog that doesn't fit your RP if you define it well enough, Serana is a vampire and Isran(who hates them more then anyone; just ask him!) cuts her a bit of slack after the questline, but before that, is not killing her only by your request(and is gonna kill you if she steps out of line), and Kingdoms of Almur: Reckoning deals with some of the issues one faces in the Elder Scrolls series better, and some worse.

 

Oh, and even having dialog choices for how you treat her and the fact that she responds differently is awesome. Yes, it's a railroad as you HAVE to have her around, but every video game ends up being a railroad if it has a plot, as it starts somewhere and ends somewhere. The path might change a bit, as might your destination, but you always get railroaded in video games.

Just is sometimes more jarring if you are used to having the ilusion of free will being there. Oh, and on that matter, Would You Kindly not quote this paragraph if you quote this post?

[pleasenoname]

I was thinking. Maybe turn/mod her into a spectral ghost? Then you can't hit her because she has no physical form and suddenly the story makes sense. I haven't played Dawnguard yet, not sure if that would work.

[Niklass]

To OP: You hate Vampires in your RP, yes? Isran hates them more. Even he has some sympathy when she kills her dad. Yeah, she is very much a vampire, but then again, killing out of hate and nothing more isn't good. Hate burns too hot to last. A character must grow beyond his origins to truly grow. Perhaps the fact that you have to ally yourself with a Monster to save the world is enough.

But that's the thing I don't have to ally myself with her to save the world. Killing her IS saving the world. Her blood and Elder Scroll are needed for the prophecy kill her secure the Elder Scroll you don't need her in fact you are taking a risk by allowing her to live a huge one by handing her over.

 

On the subject of Morrowind's text based system. I'm very much with you. It's perhaps my favorite dialog system in gaming but I really don't see it being used in a AAA game any time soon. People are just too used to voice acting and a lot of people don't like to read especially in more action heavy games.

 

However, I don't think I never had that disconnect when playing Morrowind because they weren't restrained by the cost of voice acting. I really think Morrowind was just a different game with a different focus made for players that do think outside the box and Skyrim for the most part isn't. I may be wrong but I feel like they just don't care enough with Skyrim to give options or at least rationale for why someone who isn't the stereotypical Nord hero warrior would play the game. They are so focused on catering to how their largest audience will most likely play.

 

It's quite ironic when you listen to the making of and they say: "If we pose an interesting problem and then we let the player solve it in whatever he deems fit, that's gonna make the cool, interesting story."

WTF happened?

Edited December 30, 2013 by Niklass

[YX33A]

 

To OP: You hate Vampires in your RP, yes? Isran hates them more. Even he has some sympathy when she kills her dad. Yeah, she is very much a vampire, but then again, killing out of hate and nothing more isn't good. Hate burns too hot to last. A character must grow beyond his origins to truly grow. Perhaps the fact that you have to ally yourself with a Monster to save the world is enough.

But that's the thing I don't have to ally myself with her to save the world. Killing her IS saving the world. Her blood and Elder Scroll are needed for the prophecy kill her secure the Elder Scroll you don't need her in fact you are taking a risk by allowing her to live a huge one by handing her over.

 

On the subject of Morrowind's text based system. I'm very much with you. It's perhaps my favorite dialog system in gaming but I really don't see it being used in a AAA game any time soon. People are just too used to voice acting and a lot of people don't like to read especially in more action heavy games.

 

However, I don't think I never had that disconnect when playing Morrowind because they weren't restrained by the cost of voice acting. I really think Morrowind was just a different game with a different focus made for players that do think outside the box and Skyrim for the most part isn't. I may be wrong but I feel like they just don't care enough with Skyrim to give options or at least rationale for why someone who isn't the stereotypical Nord hero warrior would play the game. They are so focused on catering to how their largest audience will most likely play.

 

It's quite ironic when you listen to the making of and they say: "If we pose an interesting problem and then we let the player solve it in whatever he deems fit, that's gonna make the cool, interesting story."

WTF happened?

 

Kiling her doesn't save the world so long as Molag Bal exists(as stated in a different thread). It adds more work for Harkon, yes, delaying his plans, sure, but Molag Bal still exists, thus there are always going to be "Daughters of Coldharbor".

 

Plus, all we know about the elder scroll on her back when we first meet her is that it's an elder scroll. No details beyond that. We know nothing about it's contents, or even that she IS a daughter of coldharbor. So much we don't know, yet killing her is your first response. You were on a Intel Gathering mission. Getting a Vampire to talk is great. It's jabbering on about stuff that is over your head, but says they will explain more when they trust you(and step one is taking them home)? You needed info. All you want is blood on your hands/claws.

You aren't cut out for saving the world I'd say.(or rather your character) Kill first, ask questions never? That's a Bandit. A Hero thinks, has at best a plan(with a few plan B's, and maybe even a handfull of plan C's they forgot on purpose due to the risk of massive collateral damage), or at least thinks well on their feet.

Again, even Isran seems to be okay with her in the end, and that guy is a true fanatic(unlike your character).

 

In the end, though, if you were RPing someone who wasn't a fanatical murderer with the loose justification of "They're Vampires and must die", I'd say you might be a bit more accepting of how little control you have when you first meet her.

 

Yeah, bugs me like hell that she can't be killed even after the DLC, but then again, she isn't forced to hang out with you after it either. Break the RP for the DLC and pick it up again when you've beaten it, and leave her back at the fort and never talk to her again.

[simtam]

For the Quest Limbo, I'll bring out the Godhead Canon :smile:

 

you are role-playing in a not-so-bright fantasy world whose some inhabitants seriously apprehend the matrix-esque idea that all world is a dream of a dreaming entity, the Godhead, which apparently cannot shave itself with Occam razor. On the other end of scale, everybody at least heard about common magic spells that affect minds of people or creatures. So for this reason or for some other reason (how exactly, that is not known in general), a person's free will can be restrained in this world, and this actually does happen for your dovahkiin player character, and as it sometimes happens, your dovahkiin is also prevented from talking about that.

 

So, we are in a world where the doctrine of free will never gained so much importance as in ours. There are in-game observable consequences that corroborates that, for instance: typical punishment for manslaughter is a moderate amount of weregild. Enjoy the play, don't assume that you'll always be as smart and resourceful as one could be in the real life. Especially when you deal with Daedra Princes and Elder Vampires.

 

Of course you can make the mod to fix this Serana issue.

[ilikecheese1337]

 

But that's the thing I don't have to ally myself with her to save the world. Killing her IS saving the world. Her blood and Elder Scroll are needed for the prophecy kill her secure the Elder Scroll you don't need her in fact you are taking a risk by allowing her to live a huge one by handing her over.

 

 

And what happens when Harkon - or, hell, any other vampire the Kel finds its way to (good luck locking up a fragment of creation when it wants to leave) - finds another Daughter of Coldharbour and blots out the sun whilst you're patting yourself on the back? It's not a good idea to try to brute-force prophecy so blatantly; you can subvert it, set yourself against it, whatever, but you can't leave loopholes. Of course, the Dragonborn may not know this, but then simple irrationality could also explain leaving Serana alive (well, as good as.)

 

If your character is so determined to kill vampires that s/he'll even attack a friendly one, then the plot won't stretch to allow it, much like you can't play a psychopath or a Thalmor extremist and murder the Blades in the Main Quest.

[Lord Garon]

Well, my Dawnguard vamp whacker is a squishy mage; hesitation is death (on Legendary). The pillar rose up (at the ready), a woman inside (slight hesitation), glowing red eyes (A trap!). Shouting, atronachs, fireball staffs, resurrected vampires; it was a prelude to the Second Great War in an instant. To no avail; it was obvious she was essential.

 

I reload the immediately preceeding save and just wait. After a bit, Jenassa's timeless comment suddenly occurs to me, "What the...!?"

 

Here I am with Isran's advice ringing in my ears, about to escort a seemingly very important, several hundred year old teenage vampire back to daddy. With an Elder Scroll on her back. I reloaded the save several times trying to find the mistake I had made.

 

I like sublety in plot lines as much as the next guy, but this just seemed wrong. Was I now making the choice to side with the vampires that I'd heard about? Pretend I don't know about that; WWID? If he had no other choices, he certainly wouldn't help her. Maybe I'll just leave. Wait a sec, maybe we can burn the entire family tree down. Isran would like that. Unless they're all essential, uh, immortal as well. Then what? Then we just helped her get home and now we're surrounded by unmortal, possibly unfriendly, undead. Are there good vampires? Maybe she IS different. Okay, have I ever met a good vampire? Well, a couple of them did not attack me on sight and seemed okay, in public, at least. Relatively good. Is that good enough? Are they all intrinsically evil? Or, is that undeadist thinking? The Vigilants wouldn't agonize over this. Never met a draugr I liked, either. But, they're cursed or something. Maybe the corpuscle munchers are cursed. No, wait, even a couple dragons seem to be just onery and not the most-evil-things-ever. Only bandits and skeletons are always evil. Or are they...

 

The septim was hard to see in the dark. Was that heads, or tails?

Edited December 31, 2013 by Lord Garon

[KanesGhost]

Well, my Dawnguard vamp whacker is a squishy mage; hesitation is death (on Legendary). The pillar rose up (at the ready), a woman inside (slight hesitation), glowing red eyes (A trap!). Shouting, atronachs, fireball staffs, resurrected vampires; it was a prelude to the Second Great War in an instant. To no avail; it was obvious she was essential.

 

I reload the immediately preceeding save and just wait. After a bit, Jenassa's timeless comment suddenly occurs to me, "What the...!?"

 

Here I am with Isran's advice ringing in my ears, about to escort a seemingly very important, several hundred year old teenage vampire back to daddy. With an Elder Scroll on her back. I reloaded the save several times trying to find the mistake I had made.

 

I like sublety in plot lines as much as the next guy, but this just seemed wrong. Was I now making the choice to side with the vampires that I'd heard about? Pretend I don't know about that; WWID? If he had no other choices, he certainly wouldn't help her. Maybe I'll just leave. Wait a sec, maybe we can burn the entire family tree down. Isran would like that. Unless they're all essential, uh, immortal as well. Then what? Then we just helped her get home and now we're surrounded by unmortal, possibly unfriendly, undead. Are there good vampires? Maybe she IS different. Okay, have I ever met a good vampire? Well, a couple of them did not attack me on sight and seemed okay, in public, at least. Relatively good. Is that good enough? Are they all intrinsically evil? Or, is that undeadist thinking? The Vigilants wouldn't agonize over this. Never met a draugr I liked, either. But, they're cursed or something. Maybe the corpuscle munchers are cursed. No, wait, even a couple dragons seem to be just onery and not the most-evil-things-ever. Only bandits and skeletons are always evil. Or are they...

 

The septim was hard to see in the dark. Was that heads, or tails?

I wish Nexus still had a 'Like' Button.

[fraquar]

I tend to look at it from 2 perspectives:

 

1) I'm not really a Dawnguard fanatical Vampire slayer, I'm just some pawn that was sent out to do the Dawnguard's dirty work - stir things up and buy them time to rebuild. Seriously, no prerequisites, no initiation rites, nothing. As far as I'm concerned I'm not expected to come back anyway.

 

2) Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. There is a reason why a vampire was locked away with an Elder Scroll - and the only way to find out is from the horse's mouth.