spoiler Haven, your choice and why.

[Philogosten]

Personally every time I play the game no matter what character I make they always defile the ashes.

 

For my Human mage, he hates the chantry for how they treat mages. Locking them up in a tower like criminals. He also does not believe in the maker or that Andraste was anything more than a strong mage who pretended to be something else to secure a place in history. So he defiles the ashes and makes plenty of questionable choices like killing Genitivi however he is very generous and often gives as much money as possible to those who need it like Kaitlin.

 

For my Human Noble. He is not a believer in the maker and when he met Kolgrim, he liked how he acted. Giving him a chance for redemption while he and Morrigan were covered in the blood of his people. He also was extremely polite and non violent considering that the warden just committed mass murder. So he also Defiled the ashes

 

as for my last character who

I once played as a female rogue just because I never played as a female in the game before so I wanted to see how it effected the game.

She also defiled the ashes as she sees the Chantry as much more evil than Kolgrims people. Kolgrims "cult" if you like that term only killed a few people. The Chantry is the cause of many deaths including those of apostates whose only crime was not wanting to be locked away in a tower for their entire lives.

[WarKittyKat]

I'm debating on my next character...he would really like the bonus, but he might end up not defiling the ashes just so he could keep the cute little redhead happy!

[Carley910]

I agree that Andraste was just a strong mage, but she was actually pretty cool in some ways. She led a struggle for freedom against her people's oppressors. The whole 'magic exists to serve and not to rule over people' rule doesn't seem like something that's necessarily meant to oppress mages. It seems more like a prohibition against mind control and using one's power to control others. Having the experiences that her people had with the blood magic of the Tevinter mages, this seems like a reasonable prohibition. It could have been addressed to other mages and a reminder to herself. I think it could be that the intent of the message was distorted over time.

Unfortunately, many people have used religion to add legitimacy to their battles. They were slaves fighting against their masters and trying to free themselves (Any tool that they could use in this situation seems pretty justified). Your warden has an opportunity to use religion to boost the morale of the troops in Redcliffe. She was probably a really charismatic leader who was already revered for military prowess. It's possible that she claimed religious inspiration for practical reasons and that it was one of those stories that grew in the telling (with her ending up as "the maker's betrothed"). I'm not saying that that's definitely how it was, but it's possible.

It totally agree that the Chantry is completely messed up and oppressive though, it just doesn't necessarily follow that Andraste would have supported this (being an escaped slave and probably a mage herself).

My characters weren't generally willing to take the risk of strengthening that dragon. I mean, what if pouring that blood in strengthened it and it and started going on some kind of killing rampage? Nothing against them, but worshiping a dragon is a pretty dangerous business. Killing all of those people wasn't cool though, but there wasn't a way to keep them from attacking.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Carley910

[Philogosten]

Carley you made some great points. However the dragon is not necessarily evil or even wicked at all. It has proven to be smart enough to understand the complexities of human speech though without being able to speak itself which suggests it is as smart as if not much smarter than a human. Now a creature like that in Ferelden especially given the state of things would not need any power boost to slaughter nearly anyone there without much trouble however it chooses to stay isolated watching over its worshippers and its children, that seems like a rather good thing to me. In fact there is nothing at all to suggest that it is dangerous to worship it as it so far has killed no one nor has it ordered the death of anyone, its followers killed to protect it because they felt they must. If you believed your savior was in a form that was mortal and could be hunted by some for sport or fame then would you not also protect it as it's followers did? In fact when you talk to Kolgrim after receiving the nice cup of blood he seems to be completely in favor of battling the Darkspawn. In fact if the designers did not rush the game and cut so much out then Kolgrim and his buddies plus the Dragon probably would have followed you into battle against the Arch Demon as he basically says that they would fight the Darkspawn with you. Actually I would be much more worried about the Templars as they have an army and clearly do not have a high regard for life as they try to solve every problem by killing someone. Think about it, the gauntlet is full of ash wraiths and those are not meant to be in this world in fact the binding of them to that place seems an awful lot like blood magic doesn't it? Then you have to consider that Enchanter Sweeney said if you told him magic could fix his eyes "not any magic I would be caught doing." and that is just for fixing his eyes, so just imagine what sort of magic it took to keep the Guardian there alive for so long without him aging or even needing to eat or sleep (there is no bed or food so it looks as though he does neither probably because he just like the wraiths was a demon bound to Andrastes will.)

[Carley910]

You make a good point in considering the situation from the perspective of the dragon-Andraste followers, but I don't think it's likely that the dragon can understand the complexities of human speech; the dragon just didn't attack Kolgrim when he spoke. Dragon-Andraste is probably used to being fed and served by them, so it seems plausible that she wouldn't attack. I think that she's just a normal high dragon (although I'm not sure how intelligent most dragons are).
Of course it's better not to kill anyone, or to make them suffer (whatever their intelligence level or species), but I have not seen anything that would give me enough confidence to just give Dragon-Andraste a bunch of new powers with which to "smite her enemies" (Kolgrim's words).

As for the dragon not already pillaging the surrounding area, according to the dragon age wiki,
"High dragons rarely leave their lairs; they prefer to spend their time sleeping, mating, and living off the prey their drakes bring back. However, roughly once every century, the high dragon will prepare for clutching by taking wing. Commonly known as a rampage, she will fly far and wide for weeks, eating hundreds of animals, to support her growing dragonlings. Leaving devastation in her wake, she then returns to her lair to lay her eggs, restarting the cycle of dragons". With these habits in mind, it seems unlikely that Dragon-Andraste would go rampaging much more often than 100 years, but I'd still be reluctant to give her new powers for when she did do this.

Also looked up on Dragon Age wiki,
"If The Warden defiled the Sacred Ashes for Kolgrim, Brother Genitivi announces discovery of the Ashes, drawing enormous attention from scholars. Expeditions to the ruins found nothing and several years later his work is declared fiction. He commits suicide. The Dragon appears by winter, rampaging across the countryside, rumors are heard of it being worshiped as Andraste by cultists, and efforts to find the lair or the ashes ultimately fail as the cultists rapidly gain converts." So, it does appear that the dragon will go on a rampage, which makes it pretty undesirable to potentially enhance the dragon's power.

I understand why the people of Haven did what they did, they felt that they had to protect their way of life (although it was pretty a uncool thing for them to do, they could have at the very least tried to make a deal with Genitivi, not tortured the guards and then regale Genitivi with tales of this, not automatically try to kill the warden and refuse to deal with him/her, etc.) It would be pretty legitimate for them to be afraid of what the Chantry would do to them though. Even if one made the case that their wish to protect their traditions justified kidnapping Genitivi and torturing/ killing the knights, it certainly would not justify Eirik (according to Genitivi) being pleased/smug that he had done this. Still, that also doesn't justify the warden killing a bunch of townspeople or even killing Kolgrim, they want to be left alone and shouldn't have to deal with outside powers like the (mainstream) Chantry.
The exposure of the people of Haven to the rest of the world can still be minimized if Genitivi is sent back to Denerim when you first meet him. Your warden has the option to refuse to take him with you while exploring the temple, and he will just give you the key and go back to Denerim. The deaths of the townspeople can be minimized by not going into any of their houses while going up to their chantry, not going into the back room of the trader's building and going straight from their chantry to the temple without checking the outside area first. The rest of the deaths are pretty unavoidable. Kolgrim and his group of mages/warriors that you meet are the additional group of people that die/attack you if your warden doesn't defile the ashes, but I think enhancing the powers of the dragon is more destructive in the long run.
I agree that the templars are a worry and that many tend to solve their problems violently, but they're unfortunately also kept on a pretty short leash by the Chantry through the use of drugs/ drug dependence, I have no doubt that all of their actions are on Chantry instruction.

I don't think that it can be assumed that the wraiths are in the gauntlet through the use of blood magic. They could just be there because the veil between the fade and the world is weak/thin there. I doubt that the Guardian is a demon bound to Andraste's will, I'm pretty sure he died after she did. He was the spirit of someone who once lived, he was a devoted follower. Actually, his reaction is another reason I wouldn't want to destroy the ashes. After guarding the ashes for who knows how long, it would have all been for nothing.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Carley910

[Philogosten]

Well you are forgetting something. Motive. Saying the dragon is rampaging just because is like if Logain convinces people you are evil by saying "The Warden and those he traveled with killed an entire village of people. He even killed the women." refering to you slaughtering Haven. See? Anything can be bad if you leave out details. For all we know the Dragon was defending some of it's followers who were traveling to spread the word about it from Templars who would kill those that were spreading a new belief and saying that the Chantry is wrong and that the resulting deaths were blamed on it. Also remember in DAO they try to make it quite clear that often what is in legends is often false or unfounded. For instance remember all the lies about Flemeth? So why should what is said about Dragons rampaging be believed when we know that much of the tales told are complete bullcrap? That is most likely just the Chantry spreading lies like they love to do. For the veil to be thin it requires much blood magic being used like in the Wardens Keep, the veil was only thin enough to allow demons to pass through on their own because of how much blood was spilled and used in magic. Keep in mind he is more than a spirit, he has a physical body which is something that can no happen by just a non mages will to protect someones grave. The only possible way he is still there is through magic and magic that extends ones life on earth that long is not going to be any kind of magic that someone could do without the chantry wanting to kill them for it so the very magic used to protect the ashes would be condemned by the followers of the religion started by the person who is now ashes. Remember not to take legends and rumors in DAO as fact. Talking to Morrigan alone debunks plenty of things that are said to be fact in Dragon Age so why should we trust the "information" on dragons when even the history of Ferelden is completely packed with lies?

[Carley910]

Believing that the dragon would have those kind of lofty motivations if it went on a rampage seems to require the belief that this dragon really is special or not like other dragons in some way. My wardens did not believe this, but I suppose the possibility cannot be disproven either.

 

It's true that the epilogue cannot be assumed to be definitely true, but it would be the best information that we have, and it would make the events described in it much more likely to be true.

 

I don't think blood magic is not required for the veil to be thin. The veil is also more likely to be thin in places that have seen a lot of bloodshed. This is from a codex entry (it's true that an entry can't simply be taken as fact, but it is the best information that we have):

 

"Studies of the Veil have never been thorough. The Tevinters once theorised that the Veil is thin in places that have seen great bloodshed. As the Chantry is so fond of reminding us, the magisters of the Imperium only once crossed physically into the Fade, the catastrophe that blackened the Golden City. As the story goes, the ritual consumed a vast quantity of lyrium and the blood of a hundred slaves. But was it the deaths that bridged the worlds, or simply the blood and lyrium? Or both? Demons seize every opportunity, every tear in the Veil, to enter our world."

 

I would imagine that many pilgrims have died trying to get through the gauntlet, and that there is a lot of lyrium there. Oghren comments on this and says that the whole mountain is full of lyrium, which I would think would also have something to do with the veil being thin (as well as having the ashes of a particularly powerful mage resting there). The Guardian also says that when the people of Haven started worshiping dragon-Andraste, many of those who disagreed were killed.

 

The guardian might even be a person who's lifespan is affected by the healing abilities of the ashes. Oghren guesses that the Guardian's unnatural long life is caused by the lyrium of the mountain. He might also be a spirit, but it is not possible to know for sure.

 

This conversation has gotten pretty in depth :D

Edited March 7, 2013 by Carley910

[Philogosten]

Well it does not take a special dragon to have well thought out goals, perhaps that is how all dragons are as most tales of dragons in general that helped influence the games lore are about intelligent creatures not just mindless killing machines. The old gods are dragons and they are extremely intelligent so it seems likely that the other dragons should be at least be somewhat as smart given they have the same anatomy. Though much blood being spilled seems to make the veil thin at certain areas I do not think that lyrium can do it the same was otherwise orzamar (spelled wrong probably but I only had 1 cup of coffee so far so please excuse any bad spelling) would be flooded with demons and spirits but they are not and lyrium can be physically seen everywhere in that city even because of how much there is. Yet the veil there does not seem to be thin at all. I have a theory of why bloodshed does it and not lyrium, it is because it is not just the blood itself that tears away at the veil but it is the massive loss of life since when you die in that game your soul crosses over and a mass amount of souls doing so could damage the veil as I am sure the afterlife in that game is either an area in the fade. Also the long life would not be caused by lyrium if it did then Grey wardens would just keep enough lyrium on themselves to keep them from dying so they can forever be ready to fight an arch demon. Elongated life so far in the dragon age universe so far has only been done through blood magic and no alternatives have been shown yet. As for him being just a spirit who is there by taking advantage of the veil being thin in that area, then how come demons have not been trying to escape into the world using that area since demons always manage to find any place the veil is thin and pour through it like blood from a wound. Think about it, everytime you encounter a demon outside of the fade it is always in an area where the veil was thin and so they escaped, now the gaurdian might be able to have beaten a few demons to keep them from getting out but based on how easy he goes down if you fight him he couldnt even beat a pride demon. If he used the ashes to prolong his life then that would make sense however using the body of a dead person to prolong life does not exactly seem like a very good guy thing to do, even using the ashes to cure Arl Eamon seems questionable at best however that one I can see as the right choice given that Grey Wardens are free from moral restraint as long as in the end it helps to kill the Arch Demon and stop the blight (that is actually why they are called Grey Wardens, it is refering to being morally grey.) Oh and I do love in depth conversations about video games because I am at heart a total geek and this is like my version of sports lol.

[Carley910]

Dragons might be more intelligent than they are currently thought to be, although we can't even be certain that the old gods ever existed. If they did exist and the archdemons really are the corrupted old gods, archdemons are still far more intelligent than other dragons so I'm not sure that we could necessarily determine how intelligent dragons are by looking at archdemons/old gods, although it would be an indication that they are probably more intelligent than a lot of other animals.

If the Dragon really has a level of intelligence that is compatible with those kinds of plans, I would say that trying to get people to start a religion around herself makes her kind of a megalomaniac. Going on a rampage in order to strengthen her religion isn't helping her case with me. (Although maybe she's trying to make things better for dragons in which case I'd think she's pretty cool :D. I doubt that they'd take the game in that direction, but you never know.) Anyways, my wardens thought that she'd be fairly likely to go on a rampage eventually and weren't going to give her extra power, they didn't believe that she had plans to start a religion. Personally, I saw making her more powerful as more of a threat to others, but other people could see it differently.

OK, that makes sense. I agree that a large amount of lyrium alone wouldn't create a weak spot in the veil. If it went along with a lot of blood and death in the area it might contribute though. A lot of killing/spilled blood in a lyrium rich area might also be more likely to create a weak spot in the fade, although Orzammar has seen plenty of fighting. Maybe the lack of a weak spot in the fade has to do with the dwarves being magic resistant/not magical, the blood spilled there might be more magic resistant and might not have the same effect even in a lyrium rich area.
If tears in the veil are caused by spirits crossing into the fade when people die, it might take dwarve's spirits longer to travel there and not have the same kind of sudden effect that a blood mage would wish for. Dwarves don't enter the fade as easily as others.They might also be less likely to enter the fade all at once and put enough strain on the veil to tear it.

Still, I think the most likely option for the Guardian's existence is that the Guardian's life is prolonged by the ashes. I don't see this as a "bad guy" thing to do, since he spends his entire life protecting them in loyalty to Andraste's memory. He could've done more productive things with his time and even used them to cure some non-nobles (I think Andraste would've been down with that), but c'est la vie.

I'm terrible at sports so I'm lucky we're doing this instead!

[Philogosten]

Well Andraste tried to get people to believe she was pretty much the most important human ever so that is really not any different from the dragon wanting people to believe that it is Andraste except that Andraste did it first. Andraste also did her fair share of rampaging, killing in the name of a creator that she tried to convince people was on her side so any of her enemies would be looked at as evil. So far the things you think the dragon is evil for are the same things done by Andraste and she is regarded as a hero and a savior. However the dragon is just doing as she did so why does that make it evil? So actually unless you believe Andraste was evil then you cant believe the dragon is since they just did almost the exact same things. Clearly dragons are just getting a bad rep here, when what one religions saint does is mimicked by a dragon then the dragon is looked upon as evil. The tears are a form of blood magic when you think about it, it is using the body of someone though in this case a burned one for power. That is blood magic. Now his goal is actually ultimately extremely selfish. He is protecting the ashes because he wants to, he could have wondered the world with them helping people and all. Even leaving the ashes with the head of the chantry and helping others fight the Darkspawn which would save many lives, he doesnt though. Simply because he does not care about anything past his own desires. Very wolf in sheeps clothing. He pretends to be a good guy but that is nothing but an act. Even Morrigan is helping against the blight and she is borderline evil so what does it say about the Guardian that he wont help when a borderline evil mage even will. Even Flemeth helped by saving two of the Wardens yet this Guardian instead just sits around and waits for people to die in the gauntlet. Actually since the dragon and Andraste have such similar actions I wouldn't be shocked if it truly was Andraste reborn as a dragon or possessing a dragon via magic since she was a powerful mage as we established so just like Flemeth she could have found a way to put part of her soul into something else like a baby dragon and then she stayed hidden up near Haven and communicated to her followers who she was. It is not like people just saw a dragon and went "well lets worship that for no reason at all" it had to have explained itself somehow most likely telepathy as that is how old gods speak it seems and they seem to be nothing but high dragons, Oh and I forgot to address it, the old gods have to be real otherwise they wouldnt be able to call to the Darkspawn which they do even before being tainted but the Darkspawn are not called to every dragon otherwise they would have attacked the temple near Haven since that place is full of dragons. There is something different between the old gods and normal dragons, kind of like how non mages and mages are the same except one is capable of infinitely more than the other and can do things like enter the fade with just some lyrium and stuff. It seems old gods are just the mages of dragons. However one is not smarter than the other or incapable of complex though so it would not make sense to assume that dragons have these limitations if they are indeed just the non mages of their species.