The Creepy Cull of Female Protagonists

[TRoaches]

Perhaps it has to do with ability to roleplay. In games where gender is not an option, such as Tomb Raider, if a guy wants to play the game, he has to play as a girl. Now, I am a woman, so I'm only speculating here, but maybe it is hard for a male to roleplay as a female.

 

I can only speak for myself, but at least in my case you have a good point. For example, I tried starting a Mass Effect game with a female character and just didn't enjoy it as much. It was the same with Fallout. There was something about it that made it more difficult to put myself in the shoes, so to speak, of the character and I soon lost interest and started over with a male. I haven't played Tomb Raider since the PS1 version, but what I remember of it was that it was pretty much a platform jumper and I don't remember experiencing the same barrier because it didn't have much in the way of RPG elements or choice, so there was no impulse for me to identify with the avatar in the way that I do when playing an RPG. I suppose if there were a true RPG that did not allow gender choice and forced me to play as a female I would be somewhat turned off by that limitation. If I were female and felt the same way I would be more limited in which games I can really dig into on an RP level because there are quite a few that lack a choice of PC gender, and in most examples that I can recall the PC in those games is male.

Edited May 15, 2013 by TRoaches

[Ihoe]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7044-The-Creepy-Cull-of-Female-Protagonists (video contains strong language and a couple of sexual references)

 

The Escapists Jim Sterling has made a video pointing out the disappearance of female protagonists in games, this is something I've noticed and it's not something that has always been a problem, during the PS1/PS2 era female protagonists weren't unusual, there weren't as many as there were males but they were there and unlike today they weren't being hidden. I find it disturbing that as the rest of the world moves on into the 21st century the gaming industry is going back to the 1950s/60s, why are they doing this? if the demographics from the ESA are correct then insecure teenage boys are a minority so why are they being allowed to dictate the direction gaming is taking? From a purely commercial point of view it's worth remembering that half the population are female, to not cater to half the population is idiotic.

I think this is a rushed conclusion, Those who make the game have every right to choose who they think fits the story for them, it's like complaining why don Quixote was not female and how much of a racist chauvinist bastard the author was for not writing a female version, or a black version, or a khajiit version.

 

Forcing the authors with the will of the community will just take away creativity. Picasso didn't think of gender equality when he drew the Mona Lisa (is his masterpiece scantily clad or blonde?). Gender stereotypes are just relative, I do agree they are offensive sometimes, but I think it bears little value when you add options out of disinclination. The first two gears of war games scared me half to death sometimes, the third one felt less serious, I really did not think exotic looking ladies who looked like they just came out of hair saloons made sense in a game about war and devastation. women who appeal to advertising for any audience don't fit the theme of every game and when they don't they won't even make sense, and are more offensive IMO. Just how obese men are not saving the galaxy. I think the rights of obese men are being abused. :)

 

I think the ladies in the industry are more than capable of turning the tides in any direction in time and don't need all the hype and sympathy to make them look weak and dependant.

[Lisnpuppy]

Ok Picasso didn't paint the Mona Lisa...Da Vinci did. :smile:

 

And yes Ihoe you are right that game companies and anyone who creates something has a right to do whatever they want. But that article is just the latest of many recently regarding women and the gaming industry. Not only regarding female protagonist in games but also women in GAMING. To just say if women wanted to change this they could is really missing the point. Women have been trying to change things and are fighting a very uphill battle. This issue is a microcosm of society in general.

 

If you look at any article about these issues and then read the comments you will see that there are many people that think there is no issue or who cares about women and so forth.

 

Take a look at some of these articles

 

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2013/03/ubisoft_female_protagonists_in_main_assassins_creed_titles_wouldnt_be_surprising

 

http://kotaku.com/5963528/heres-a-devastating-account-of-the-crap-women-in-the-games-business-have-to-deal-with-in-2012

 

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/05/08/gtfo-a-film-about-women-in-gaming-is-going-ahead/

 

Really I could google on and on here. Many articles have been from women in the gaming industry and their discussion about how they are viewed by the gaming industry and this reflects wider on how women are treated in the games themselves.

 

Or we could talk about how Adam Sessler took all kinds of flack for rightly pointing out in his review of the latest God of War game that the achievement "Bro's before Ho's" Though this was later removed this is the quote from Adam about this:

 

"There is one more depressing aspect of God of War Ascension. After the very best boss battle in the game, there is a cut scene which displays one of the most violent things I have ever seen in a video game. It is Kratos, boot stomping a Furies face in. While the image of a woman's face being kicked in is borderline, the overall dark nastiness of the franchise, and it's lack of gender role outside the famous sex scenes, kept it just inside a tonal context. But following the conclusion of the cutscenes, you get a trophy.....this one (*shows image of a playstation trophy*) Bro's before Ho's. This gut punch of misogyny irredeemably sours this game and is shocking to see a talented developer with traffic in such a contemptible attitude. I have always liked the adult fantasy of the God of War games, in all it's overall silliness, and in this moment, it is reduced to frat house joke making it making me ashamed for thinking that it was ever more than that in the first place".

-Adam Sessler

 

Another article on how Adam was treated.

 

http://venturebeat.com/2013/03/07/god-of-war-ascension-and-misogyny-how-adam-sessler-is-holding-games-to-a-higher-standard/

 

Adam didn't have issue with the violence necessarily or that there was violent scenes involving a woman. He had issue that this achievement was issued after. How much more sexist can one get here? So if a major game developer thought this was ok how can one think that women protagonist will ever get a fair shake?

 

I ask also....if it is a good, well-written game why would you have a problem playing a female protagonist? Do you have a problem playing some kind of alien or weird critter? Not usually. So if women make up this large portion of gamers do they not have as much issue as men in role playing a male protagonist? Or is the roles of female protagonist not getting as good of writing in games that doesn't allow a male gamer to connect?

 

I think that is the issue. Because of the general attitude in gaming the writing for women protagonist is over all less than stellar. Sure you can point to some gems like The Assassin's Creed vita version of the game but that is a rare thing. To note the writer of this game was a woman. She says that not writing good, female protagonist is people being "creatively lazy" (her interesting interview http://www.vg247.com/2013/02/28/assassins-creed-3-liberation-writer-says-no-magic-touch-required-for-diversity/.) I agree.

 

If you look at all other genre of art and entertainment on can see a slow, but moving forward progression of stronger women characters. I am a person that thinks art not only reflects culture but can influence culture. Demanding more good, well-written games with strong women characters can not only help to change the gaming industry (and getting some awesome games) but how women are viewed in society. I think that gaming developers have the same obligation as any other industry to help make this happen. No I don't think there should all of a sudden be a bunch of games thrown out with women in them. I think if writers and developers would stop being so narrowly focused (and stop letting the shareholders dictate what to write, which is an issue that effects gaming in general) then we could have some amazing games that ANYONE would love to play.

 

ALL gamers must step up and demand that things change. The myth that all gamers are 15 year old white boys is just that...a myth. A myth that gamers should dispell. There is room in games for all kinds of protagonist in games. It's time we as gamers, demand better.

[Marxist ßastard]

Those who make the game have every right to choose who they think fits the story for them, it's like complaining why don Quixote was not female and how much of a racist chauvinist bastard the author was for not writing a female version, or a black version, or a khajiit version.

You are really failing to see the forest for the trees here. Nobody is trying to step in and dictate the gender of characters in individual games. But taken as a whole, gender representation in games points to a systemic problem, and it's reasonable to ask developers to take more action to fight this problem rather than contribute to it.

 

It's like the pay gap. If Alice makes $4k less than Bob each year, that could be due to any number of reasons. But if you look at the entire workforce, industry-by-industry, and find that women overall get 30% less compensation than men – well, it calls for the same sort of systemic intervention.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Marxist ßastard

[Tidus44]

I have a very hard time accepting that the teenage male sitting in their darkened basement for the purpose of engaging in adolescent fantasies is the sole reason game developers make games or who they target.

Tomb Raider 2013 sold 1 million copies in just 48 hours and 3.5 million copies between 5 March and 26 March 2013. It broke records for sales for Square Enix. I somehow doubt that all 3.5 million games were bought by women because teen age boys or males don't buy games with female protagonists. I also doubt that the sales were made because the box art showed an attractive female.

 

It cannot be denied that women are objectified in video games. But then, in what art form (movies, TV, literature) are they not objectified and where are men not objectified?

EEDAR studies show that video games tend to show men as big in all aspects. They are portrayed as being tall, having more muscles, with chests that are larger, heads that are bigger, waists and hips that are wider than real men. They are also predominately good looking white males, in the 30 year old range with brown hair and brown eyes.

I find that very few stories regardless of form identify the protagonist as fat, ugly and weak regardless if male or female protagonist. They tend to be "larger than life" in some aspect or other.

 

I also wonder about placing a good looking hyper-masculine male on the box art when surveys say 47% of gamers are female and female gamers over 18 represent 30% of game sales while teenage males represent 18% of sales. My thought here is exactly who is being targeted with box art?

 

We tend to think of stories as unlimited in scope and elements, but I would suggest you look up Vladimir Propp. He theorized that all stories are based upon 31 general story models involving up to seven character types that can be mixed and matched and that are found in every story. If you look at any story (game, movie, book) these elements and characters are present. They are the general themes of traditional storytelling.

The simplest of games have a theme or story, be it “Stop the aliens invading” or “Go rescue the princess” that gave some purpose to the game other than just doing whatever it was the game offered for no reason other than doing it. Why? Because as humans we need some context for cause and effect.

 

The “Rescue the Princess” storyline is important, as it is cliché, because it’s a theme throughout human history in storytelling. While the “woman as prize” is sexist and likely distasteful, it’s a common, and traditional storytelling theme rather than just deliberate sexism or objectification of females. This doesn't make it right or acceptable, it's just that it is something that is ingrained through storytelling through history.

It is also a "western" issue as, for example, Japanese games seem to have no problem having female protagonists or even feminine traits in male heroes.

 

The industry is predominately male and I agree that they don't do a good job of writing female roles. But, go ask writers or literary theorists about "speaking in the voice of the other". Pretty much any writer is hesitant to write a story where the lead is of the opposite sex of the writer. So, one should ask if the objectification is just out and out chauvinism or is it the reluctance or inability of a male writer in creating a believable/good female character within a traditional storytelling theme?
There are notable exceptions, Joss Whedon did pretty well with his Buffy series and other stories he has written with female protagonists, but for the most part writers stay within what they know and where they are comfortable.

 

I would also suggest audiences are as expectant of traditional stories and traditional protagonists as well. An example is the movie Salt that was originally written for a male character, but was rewritten to have a female protagonist. It didn't do very well, but this was a movie that had a great story and lots of action and with a female protagonist. So what was the problem? It was a good movie and audiences didn't go to it, they went to Inception instead. Audiences are caught up in "traditional" storylines of a male protagonist just as much as the storytellers are. Again, I recognize there are some notable exceptions (Hunger Games), but for the most part, audiences want and expect traditional stories with traditional protagonists. I believe this is changing, but it is a slow process.

 

According to EEDAR studies, there is a sense in the industry that games with female heroes won’t sell well. Nonetheless, a trend for women as the protagonist in modern games has been identified as has less objectification and sexualisation of women in EEDAR studies since 2007. Game developers in North America are making efforts to change and have engaged female writers and developers. I do however fear that a game with a female protagonist will be marketed as such rather than on what the game (story) is about. The focus will be that it is female orientated, rather than a good game or story. To me, that's as bad if not worse than the objectification of females in traditional storytelling themes.

 

Has equality or full acceptability of female protagonists and storytelling been achieved? No, but it is being worked on and attitudes are changing. As many males as females protested the God of War Ascension achievement of "Bro's before Ho's" and found it unacceptable. Chauvinism exists, and it exists in both females and males. To suggest that because it occurred it will always occur is counterproductive and alarmist when the facts show there is an effort being made to change.

[Lisnpuppy]

"The industry is predominately male and I agree that they don't do a good job of writing female roles. But, go ask writers or literary theorists about "speaking in the voice of the other". Pretty much any writer is hesitant to write a story where the lead is of the opposite sex of the writer. So, one should ask if the objectification is just out and out chauvinism or is it the reluctance or inability of a male writer in creating a believable/good female character within a traditional storytelling theme?"

 

I got to respectfully disagree with that one. I don't think its so impossible for a man to write good female roles any more than it is a woman to write good male roles. It happens all the time. After all most of the things we face as humans is the same. What moves us, what makes us hurt....what we fight for and believe in. If a good writer can put himself or herself into the role of an alien, a dog, an ancient warrior....in any number of things in which they have no direct perspective then why not the opposite gender? Maybe we can not know ever nuance of another gender but to manage a good protagonist in a video game is not something I think is out of the realm of possibility.

 

"According to EEDAR studies, there is a sense in the industry that games with female heroes won’t sell well"

 

Again I say this is where gamers must effect a change themselves and show that this is untrue. Perhaps those of us females should lead the charge with a demand of a good female protagonist, the men should then buy the game as well (if its a good game) and show that a good story and good game can reach across barriers of sex and gender.

 

"Has equality or full acceptability of female protagonists and storytelling been achieved? No, but it is being worked on and attitudes are changing. As many males as females protested the God of War Ascension achievement of "Bro's before Ho's" and found it unacceptable. Chauvinism exists, and it exists in both females and males. To suggest that because it occurred it will always occur is counterproductive and alarmist when the facts show there is an effort being made to change."

 

Yes I agree with this somewhat. However the backlash that Sessler got was surprising. The amount of people that claims that it was just a game and who cares was pretty large also. I stand again that a major game maker would think that was a good idea in the first place is telling. Yes there is an effort to change and this is because of a willingness to engage in this kind of dialogue. Things don't change just because. It's the people that are directly effected by something that MAKE the change happen. I am not an alarmist...I don't even consider myself a feminist. Women and men are different in many ways and I revel in that difference. However we are still all human and again...are impacted and care about many of the same things. Someone must push for change and some folks will push more than others. The pendulum must be push to begin to swing back to equality. I do not personally think that gaming today reflects where much of the rest of entertainment culture has arrived (though I still think there is a way to go) and to just say that things are changing and to stop dialogue and worry there is doing a disservice to the idea behind the change.

[Ihoe]

@Lisnpuppy

Well, damn memory is failing me at the moment, I feel embarrassed for the first part. Going to debate during calculus finals makes one make silly mistakes as this lol. Though I really missed here and couldn't resist replying. :)

 

Here's my attitude, I'm not going down the gender equality debate road. Changing the views of a whole mass of a population cannot be done directly with a form of art that is looked down upon (the US is not the center of the universe as you may know, people treat games differently everywhere) But I doubt that a few articles that show how a rampant average English speaking gamer has to throw up on something they have no idea about would be a good way to generalize a Whole demographic of population (as in Gamers). Not all gamers are sexist and insecure. Though you are damn right that sometimes games can get outrageous. My problem is when games change from being fun to a way for the author to get their message around, when the Focus is changed. Just like modern art is a pain instead of pleasure to look at, and even that's relative. (BTW I professionally paint AND Make silly embarrassing mistakes that make me laugh at myself, honest)

 

You got me wrong, I was arguing why there aren't more female protagonists, not that there shouldn't be or that they're unimportant. It's just relative to the point of view, and a problem, which I think will never be fixed to the full extent due to it's relative nature.

 

@Marxist

It has been like that since Adam and Eve dropped from the 7th plane of autherius. It's human nature to try and dominate each other. As I said I only argued about games' protagonists and nothing else and naturally would not even consider the forest of trees as they're slightly off topic.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Ihoe

[Lisnpuppy]

I am not really engaging in a gender equality debate here either. As I said I am not a feminist. Nor did I say that ALL gamers were sexist or that how women are viewed in the US was the only way things were.

 

We are talking generalities here. How the gaming industry in general gives treatment to females and female protagonist. How the "reigning opinion" of those that make a great many decisions about games seems to be right now.

 

I am not trying to change the world through gaming. Though I certainly believe that art can effect change. I would like to see gaming change more...and perhaps more rapidly. The last thing I would want is for the gaming industry to throw out a bunch of suck games with female leading rolls and say "ok there you go now shut it." because that would certainly do more harm than good.

 

But the gaming industry can and should do better. If they make a well-written and fun game then it shouldn't matter if its a guy or a girl on the cover. I love many games that are male protagonist and have no issue playing them. When I have a choice do I pick females. Yeah most of the time I do. Honestly the reasoning is many just as the choice of a man to play a male isn't always just because they don't get women. lol

 

It's a complicated issue and one that isn't going to be solved just because a game that sells well gets put out that happens to have a female as a lead role. It is the dialogue that is important. It is progress that is important. It is the acknowledgement that there are issues of gender bias (I like that more than gender equality in this discussion) that exist.

 

Art reflects life and effects life. This is how it has always been. But if we do want to talk about effecting change and how we see things...why not in games? Playing games is our first introduction into social life as children. The games we play are important at all ages. Having a large variety of choice and strong characters of all types is important.

 

edit: And you are forgiven for being brain dead after calculus.

[Ihoe]

I am not really engaging in a gender equality debate here either. As I said I am not a feminist. Nor did I say that ALL gamers were sexist or that how women are viewed in the US was the only way things were.

 

We are talking generalities here. How the gaming industry in general gives treatment to females and female protagonist. How the "reigning opinion" of those that make a great many decisions about games seems to be right now.

 

I am not trying to change the world through gaming. Though I certainly believe that art can effect change. I would like to see gaming change more...and perhaps more rapidly. The last thing I would want is for the gaming industry to throw out a bunch of suck games with female leading rolls and say "ok there you go now shut it." because that would certainly do more harm than good.

 

But the gaming industry can and should do better. If they make a well-written and fun game then it shouldn't matter if its a guy or a girl on the cover. I love many games that are male protagonist and have no issue playing them. When I have a choice do I pick females. Yeah most of the time I do. Honestly the reasoning is many just as the choice of a man to play a male isn't always just because they don't get women. lol

 

It's a complicated issue and one that isn't going to be solved just because a game that sells well gets put out that happens to have a female as a lead role. It is the dialogue that is important. It is progress that is important. It is the acknowledgement that there are issues of gender bias (I like that more than gender equality in this discussion) that exist.

 

Art reflects life and effects life. This is how it has always been. But if we do want to talk about effecting change and how we see things...why not in games? Playing games is our first introduction into social life as children. The games we play are important at all ages. Having a large variety of choice and strong characters of all types is important.

 

edit: And you are forgiven for being brain dead after calculus.

I'd say memory dead, the other parts are working just fine ;)

 

I'd rather encourage my children to play sports and engage in healthier activities than let them spend countless hours behind a Bright Light. Even if that bright light could mean getting a silver Olympiad medal or becoming a multi-linguist. Losing the beauties of Living isn't worth all this hassle for change and evolution. Games are actively evolving to bound us to our LCDs more and more giving the illusion of being limited. People are smart enough to figure what's right to them.

 

maybe games can be called art but, The problem with art is that it has a mind of it's own. You could regulate it but trust me, as a person living in a neck-tight-dogmatic society for 18 years, too much regulation could end with a bad backlash. I think we should stop worrying and let things go right and take as much time it takes. The society isn't too bad from where I see it. I mean c'mon thousands of people are getting killed daily in Syria, Palestine, Niger, Afghanistan etc. by domestic/foreign terrorism, every second 10 die out of famine in Africa, sub-Poor Working Conditions take the lives of many Chinese workers that make our iPhones and all we can do here is write about virtual characters with modable pixels.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Ihoe

[Lisnpuppy]

So because things aren't "that bad" then I should stop trying to make them better? And just because I have an opinion on this doesn't mean I don't have bigger worries or cares. Maybe you didn't mean it that way but that sure is how it came out.

 

I have many things I care about and support in my life that I don't discuss in a gaming forum. I engaged in this topic because I do think its interesting and important...not the most important but yeah....worthy of discussion.

 

I think I have discussed this all I can at this point. I will end with this. A paraphrase of Bobby Kennedy "I see what is and say, why. I dream of what could be and say, why not."