Why I'm voting for Bush

[Eiade]

800+ americans dead

100+ "coalition" members dead

countless iraqi civilians dead

 

150 Billion dollars and counting

 

0 weapons of mass destruction, 0 terrorist links, 0 bio warfare labs

 

@Tyjet: His point isn't that people are dead and it sucks, his point is that we haven't found anything and people are dead, and that there doesn't seem to be much of a reason for us going in there. Yes, it is a good feeling to see an Iraqi Olympic tem doing well and all the freedom and good stuff back home, but if our goal was to simply go in there and give them freedom, then we better get started on other countries as well. This has already been debated though. Here is a quote from Maquissar on page 1 of this debate:

 

Burma (military regime)

China (communist state - therefore EVIL)

Congo (dictatorship - MAYBE in transition to some form of democracy)

Cuba (communist state - see China)

Iran (theocratic republic)

North Korea (communist state AND dictatorship)

Laos (communist state)

Lybia (a military dictatorship)

Sudan (authoritarian regime)

Syria (republic under military regime)

Vietnam (communist state)

 

This is only a PARTIAL list, for getting started, of states in which you might want to export democracy someday. Of course, you might also want to take care of other problems... for example, Tibet is militarily occupied by China since the 1950s. I am sure there are many more examples like this. Good luck in bringing peace and freedom to the world.

[surian]

I've not seen a single person say that removing Saddam was a bad thing. That is a tremendously good thing for Iraq. However, there are other ways to do it than a military invasion. The only reason that we invaded is that we wanted to have a direct influence over Iraq once Saddam was gone. It's a thinly masked facade, we are there because of oil whatever face the current administration wants to put on it.

 

I'm not going to pick sides on this issue (really) I have distaste for both parties. I don't think that either side has the best interest of this country or it's people at heart. That's not to say that the individual party leaders don't, they very well may have the best intentions. The problem is wth how the game is played, big buisness makes the rules and if you're not gonna play ball you are going to be left out in the rain come November. Big Oil, HMOs, Big Tobacco, and thousands of other big buisnesses pull all the strings. Grass roots movements are less and less these days because we are loosing our voice more and more every year.

 

That said, I don't think that Bush has delivered on any of his campaign promeses except to put a halt to harvesting stem cells and he even botched that, he claims something on the order of 50 stem cell lines are available for research when the real number is closer to 14. Bush seems to have the idea in his head that he knows what's best for us because he has better moral values. He's not alone in that regard by any means, it's a very standard thing in the Republican party, the Democratic party does it also but not to such a degree.

 

I got into an argument with a family member recently who is republican, he's a very smart guy and a damn good debater. He's also a devout christian and a very nice guy. He made the argument that I've heard many times before that in our country our laws are based on moral values. To say that morals shouldn't enter into politics is just plain stupid. I agree with him, however the problem isn't that morals are there, but rather WHOSE morals are there. How do you choose whose moral values become law? By majority vote? If that was the case then we would probably still have segregation in the south in many parts. Women probably wouldn't have gotten the vote for another 20 or 30 years either. This is more of a problem with democracy at it's core than anything else though.

 

But let's just get really plain about it and I'll just say what I dont' like about Bush:

1. War in Iraq

2. War in Afgahnistan handled badly

3. Environmental record is terrible

4. Stance on capital punishment

5. Stance on gay marriages

6. Stance on abortion

7. Attempt to set up a national fund to aid religious organisations.

8. Stance on Israel (although this is the same across party lines)

9. WMD in Iraq scandal (he's responsible for his own actions)

10. Resumed logging in national protected forests

11. No Child Left Behind

12. Has not delivered jobs promised

13. Squandered the US surplus in his first 2 years of office

 

there is more also, but I think that sums it up pretty well. For those reasons I don't think he should be re-elected. I don't like Kerry very much either but he's got a better record in my opinion than Bush. Nader is even better but he has his problems also and will probably be more of a hinderance than help in this election. I would have liked to see Kucinich become president but that's never going to happen. He's just got views that are too much in a minority these days.

[Dark_Link2135]

making the us look weak

 

THE US WAS ALWAYS WEAK

 

the only thing that made u look strong was your nuclear arsenal and your large army with high tech stuff high tech isnt always the best solution for a army most casiulty's in american wars happened because of failing weaponry or friendly fire by so called smart bombs u stand no chance in a urban guerrilia war

 

a nuke isnt gonna stop a airliner flying in a mayor building

 

you can smuggle weapons onboard of aircraft ( like home made plastic firearms cappable of firering 5 rounds) you get steel knives when eating airline food

 

but now back on bush his IQ i dont know if you check the underground sites often but there they have a certificate stating his IQ wich is 80 it was also sayd in numerous music clips like the one from amurika these are all based on true facts

 

his dad on the other hand has a IQ of 130

okay i realize this is from the first page, but i was just glancing thru here....

 

THE US WAS ALWAYS WEAK

 

i really cannot see where you get this idea, when we are retiring military vehicles that are three times better then what anyone else has. why do you think people are trying to get IN the country, and not OUT? because we are the most successful nation on the planet, thats why. because people have a chance for success. our economy is basically the strongest on the planet. you had better hope we dont fall into a depression, because we would take the world with us. just look what happened during the Great Depression. we had FAR less of a global economy in the 20's and 30's, and even then we caused economic depressions in other countries. back to success in the united states....of course, with the democratic plan, they want to punish success thru tax rates. we should have a flat percentage for everyone, that would make more sense, but thats just my thoughts on taxes....bit off subject, srry. we have one of the highest standards of living, if not the highest, same with average salary. i beg your pardon, but you have no idea what you are talking about. if you live in the US, move to another country for awhile, and you will see how successful we are. if you do not live in the US, that further proves you have no idea how sucessful and powerful the united states is. how do you think we are weak, if we can get away with violating UN sanctions, and invading Iraq? now, i dont think the war is evil, or unnessesary, but seriously, we got off scotch free. you know why? nobody dares say anything else, because we are too powerful.

 

the only thing that made u look strong was your nuclear arsenal and your large army with high tech stuff high tech isnt always the best solution for a army most casiulty's in american wars happened because of failing weaponry or friendly fire by so called smart bombs u stand no chance in a urban guerrilia war

 

number one, leave nukes out. nobody is going to use a nuke, and if they do, it doesnt matter, because everybody becomes crispy critters, there would be no winners. totally irrelavent. nukes were made for the policy of deterrence: keeping people from attacking thru fear of retaliation.

 

as for the last part, al queda is broken and in shambles. i dont see how you can think we are losing the war. they are fighting, more desperately, because they know they are going to lose. they cannot hope to win against the US. like that japanese general said after pearl harbor, "I fear we have awoken a sleeping giant" as far as your "fact" on causualties, just show me where over 50% of deaths was due to bad weapons, or friendly fire, or bombs dropped on our own troops. our weapons jam less, and are overall much much better then what the "enemy" has. so i guess our "high tech" does work. so you are saying that a better solution would be for us to throw away the body armor, stick a turban on our heads, yell "for allah" and then charge toward the enemy with 60-year old soviet assault weapons? and this is supposed to be better then our "high-tech" way? i think not. how do you think we are rooting out al queda cells in caves in stuff? how do you think we are finding them? its the "high-tech stuff"

 

a nuke isnt gonna stop a airliner flying in a mayor building

 

like i said, nobody is going to use a nuke. however, our missiles and fighters will.

 

you can smuggle weapons onboard of aircraft ( like home made plastic firearms cappable of firering 5 rounds) you get steel knives when eating airline food

 

and there are also armed guards, and angry passengers. look what happened to the shoebomber. passengers wernt going to put up with that crap, and the guy held him in a headlock until the plane landed. believe me, there is no way of making something perfectly safe, but you can do as much as possible to make things safer.

 

but now back on bush his IQ i dont know if you check the underground sites often but there they have a certificate stating his IQ wich is 80 it was also sayd in numerous music clips like the one from amurika these are all based on true facts

 

i cant believe this. you almost prove you are an 8-year old fetus here.

 

o yes, we all know the "underground" sites are just so reliable, and 100% fact. are you visiting your anti-bush propaganda site? hmm? provide us with a link, just where can you prove bush has an IQ of 80? kind of hard to graduate top of a class with an MBA with IQ of 80, unless you are presuming harvard only accepts idiots with IQ's of 60?

[surian]

yeah well... that particular post was just idiotic. There are much better ones later on ;) keep reading.

[Darnoc]

THE US WAS ALWAYS WEAK

 

Where did you get your history lessons and lessons of politics, economics and sociology? It would be more correct to say:

 

The USA is weak now

 

Yes, the USA is weak now. The USA has entered a point, where it looks strong at the outside, but is weak in the inside, society is breaking apart. The resemblances to the Imperium Romanum are striking. Just like the Imperium Romanum, the USA has a strong military. And just like the Imperium Romanum, inside the "empire" everything is crumbling apart, society, politics, economics...

 

Did you know that the USA didn't have any black numbers in their whole economy since the seventies? Yes, their debts are getting greater and greater and greater. And then comes the time, when economy will fall apart. I can't tell you when, but it is a necessessity, it must happen, there is no way around it. Probably at the time when the European Union refuses to buy or sell anything to/from the USA.

[Adras]

Now did y'all know this? George W Bush and Joh kerry were both in a secret organizaton called the Order of the Skull and Bones. Its a secret group thats at Yale, and it picks 15 students a year to join them. They are VERY anti-christian and are rather racist. Infact George W. Bush's father and grand father were in it too. There are lots of people in it whom are high politcal figures. Here is a list of all the members that have been in it. I dont know the last time the list was updated, but Bush and kerry are both in there. And its a LONG list. I did a whole report on the Skull & Bones for school, so I know quite a bit about them.

[Darnoc]

Yeah, I have known long of this. But this organization rather looks a little childish to me, I read about their rituals and laughed, thinking, how intelligent men can do such stupid, childish things.

 

It is nothing more than a stupid students organization for elite class students.

[Dark_Link2135]

THE US WAS ALWAYS WEAK

 

Where did you get your history lessons and lessons of politics, economics and sociology? It would be more correct to say:

 

The USA is weak now

 

Yes, the USA is weak now. The USA has entered a point, where it looks strong at the outside, but is weak in the inside, society is breaking apart. The resemblances to the Imperium Romanum are striking. Just like the Imperium Romanum, the USA has a strong military. And just like the Imperium Romanum, inside the "empire" everything is crumbling apart, society, politics, economics...

 

Did you know that the USA didn't have any black numbers in their whole economy since the seventies? Yes, their debts are getting greater and greater and greater. And then comes the time, when economy will fall apart. I can't tell you when, but it is a necessessity, it must happen, there is no way around it. Probably at the time when the European Union refuses to buy or sell anything to/from the USA.

if there is one post in here i agree wholeheartedly with, its this one.

 

 

militaritly, the United States is very strong. Economically, we are still very strong. the economy is growing, but not at a healthy rate.

 

if you look at the things that happened right up to and what has been proven to have caused the fall of the Roman Empire, the US is going thru the same thing. i really hope we dont turn into another roman empire, because a collapse of the US would not only kill us, but we would (economically) take everyone else down with us.

 

 

at least i assume you meant the Roman Empire by imperium romanum, is that latin?

 

anyway, even if thats not what you mean, the same things was happening in the Roman Empire.

 

kind of scary when you think about it. the united states gives about 80% of the world's aid. because we are the richest, and most powerful, we are pretty much obligated to do so. not meaning to brag or anything, but it is true. if the US collapsed, the results would be catastrophic.

 

unless something is done very soon, and it is very drastic, we are going the way of the dodo......sorry bout that....i can almost hear you groaning.

[Darnoc]

Imperium Romanum is the latin name, therefore the correct one. ;)

 

I would strongly recommend to read "Weltmacht USA - Ein Nachruf" ("After the Empire" is the English title) by Emanuel Todd it is a good study on the problems of the USA today, he knows a lot about the economical and political problems of the USA.

 

His conclusions are that the wars the USA are leading are "look-aside" wars, so that other nations do not focus on the very bad inland situation. He also says that the USA will not be entirely destroyed, possibly, but rather loose much of its power and become a mighty nation among others, especially the coming-back Russia and the coming-up China and of course the new economic superpower EU.

[Dew]

I don't understand how it can be said that the united states is the saviour of the iraqi people, that it's because of the united states that iraqi's are able to enjoy new freedoms and glorified democracy.

 

It's ignorant. Do people just brush under the carpet world events of 10 or 15 years before? Before 1989 Iraq had the highest concentration of educated people (doctors) in the entire world. The U.S's economic sanctions drove the country into poverty, forcing children to leave school and work in factories to support their families. How was that justified? I'm not going to say saddam isn't a angel, and action in kuwait wasnt justified, but it's the disgusting politics the u.s plays over seas, supporting one terrorist faction, while targeting another.

 

America's influence isn't just limited to iraq. Every day the u.s government alters foreign politics in their own interests, like sponsoring foreign political parties in oil rich countries (an example being the recent Venezuelan election).

 

It's said the united states has to protect it's people from the threat of terrorism. I absolutely agree, and I also personally believe (and totally respect other beliefs) that changing foreign policy is the best method. Foreign actions in Saudi Arabia (military occupation) is what lead to Osama targeting the united states like he did, and I believe that current actions in Iraq are making the United States even more enemies that could lead to future conflicts and needless casualties. People don't respond well to having a gun in their face. 150 billion dollars spent on killing iraqi's could have been spent on saving lives. I realize this is a very idealistic thought, but how many would be compelled to attack a country that delivers aid instead of bullets?

 

The united states as the "most powerful" country in the world has a responsibility, and that's not limited to the government. Many describe Bush (or any president), as the leader of the free world, and the people of the united states need to take a more objective view of their own politics, how it effects them and other people in the world. Most importantly, more americans need to vote, a 49% voter turn out in a country that takes it upon themselves to install puppet governments in foreign countries is disgusting.