Boethiah... Good?

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

Hey people,

 

So I was doing some research on Daedric Princes and came upon this interesting tidbit:

 

 

 

Despite the dark undertones of his sphere and influence on Tamriel,[9] Boethiah is considered by some to be one of the "good" Daedra.[10] Boethiah is considered to be allied with the Temple of Stendarr

 

How is this even remotely possible?

 

This makes no sense at all to me. It seems like they just wanted to be like, "Hey see? Evil isn't always what you think!" and I kind of dislike that sometimes as sometimes its like, come on guys. It doesn't look like you really thought this through and just wanted to say something that is evil isn't.

 

But, I also know that just because something doesn't make sense to me that it doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. It could mean that, but it doesn't always and so I am posting this because I'm hoping that someone who does think this actually makes perfect sense can explain it.

 

The spheres this prince rule over are: deceit, secret plots of murder, assassination, treason, and UNlawful overthrow of authority.

None of those things sound even remotely good to me. In fact, if not for their obsession with Sithis, I'd say this would be the perfect force behind the Dark Brotherhood.

 

Then there's this alliance with the Temple of Stendarr which makes even less sense to me. First off, is the Temple different from the Vigilants? And whether it is or not, still seems REALLY weird that this prince of all princes would be aligned to an Aedra... or have allies at all for that matter when they like betrayal.

 

So help me out people, what am I missing here? How am I seeing Boethiah unfairly here?

[DoctorKaizeld]

this video is a Warhammmer 40k parody making fun of the lore, but this episode explains why something that appears innately evil has a a good side to it as well:

 

 

you dont have to watch the whole series just the one episode, but it is hilarious and a fun way to learn about 40k.

 

anyways the idea is essentially that the world is not all black and white. the daedra are not pure evil their just jerks who like terrorizing humanity for kicks and to annoy the Aedra. oh and it should be noted that the Aedra arent all good either.

Edited November 22, 2015 by qwertyzeldar

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

LOL, thanks for that video.

 

And yes I get that they try for such a theme, but when you go for such a theme I feel you have to use things that can be more grey than the things I just named. I also feel like this definitely doesn't explain how Boethiah would be allies with anyone especially with those of Stendarr.

 

If we were talking about chaos/change, that I can see. Even if someone's sphere was death and or decay. But in this case, those things truly are negative and I feel this is supported by the fact that the quest they have you do involves killing someone who is close to you.

[Madcat221]

Boethiah's sphere would appeal to people tired of living under a despot.

 

It's also said that Titus Mede II weilded Goldbrand in the battle to retake the Imperial City from the Dominion Army in the Great War. And Lord Naarifin, the Dominion commander, was dangled in a crow cage at the White Gold Tower for a month or so before a winged daedra reportedly carried him off. A plausible theory is that he asked a favor of Boethiah and Naarifin's soul was payment.

[TheSpaceShuttleChallenger]

Stendarr is the aedra of just rule and Boethiah is the daedra overseeing plots and mutiny. Their relationship is a mutualistic one: If an authority figure fails to follow the teachings of Stendarr, it is Boethiah who empowers the victims of tyranny to turn against the tyrant. Of course, whether or not rebels are fighting the good fight is a different question entirely. Boethiah is essentially the founder of Dunmer society, having not only encouraged their Chimer ancestors to rebel against the Aldmer and taken down Trinimac in their defence, but having bestowed upon them a great deal of their current cultural knowledge. Yes, Boethiah is also a jerk and a liar with reprehensible methods, but so was Thomas Ediso.

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

To me, it seemed strange that they used the term "unlawful" overthrow of authority as opposed to just saying the overthrowing of authority. It's not about the appeal either. I mean all the deity like beings appeal to someone but not all of them are considered good by anyone.

 

You read about the Daedric Princes and some are considered evil or considered to not be wholly evil. Boethiah, whose sphere includes basically nothing but negative things, is considered good by some. That is weird to me. It may be the first Daedric Prince I read something like that for and it actually stopped me dead in my tracks.

 

Like if they said that about Meridia, this post doesn't happen. I could see that.

 

The relationship between Stendarr and Boethiah is not mutualistic at all really. I would say that was the case if that was always how it would work, but Boethiah would actually be counterproductive to Stendarr just as he would be a benefit. Boethiah doesn't care about whether rule is just or not. They just like seeing people overthrown. Boethiah would empower people to kill a very just ruler and perhaps even revel in that more.

 

Also, look at the Vigilants of Stendarr. Stendarr, is not mentioned as an ally to Boethiah, but the Temple of Stendarr is. That makes absolutely no sense to me especially if the temple is the same as the Vigilants because they claim to hate all daedra and are against daedra worship of any kind. Yet the one daedra they tolerate is Boethiah!?

 

And Thomas Edison was a person. This is a Daedra. I mention that distinction because I feel as though humans should be capable of being that complex, but daedra should be more defined and rigid to their nature. Our odd combination of traits should be among the things about us that fascinates and/or baffles them greatly.

 

That being said, I can see why a person would do seemingly bad things here and good things there, but I can't see why a Daedric Prince of betrayal would ever NOT betray someone including the Dunmer... in my opinion.

 

And I thank you both for taking the time to participate in this discussion.

[Madcat221]

To me, it seemed strange that they used the term "unlawful" overthrow of authority as opposed to just saying the overthrowing of authority. It's not about the appeal either. I mean all the deity like beings appeal to someone but not all of them are considered good by anyone.

 

...Is there any other kind of overthrow of authority? Even just and benign authorities probably don't take kindly to being overthrown, and I highly doubt that a despotic authority wouldn't make an explicit law banning their overthrow. Legality and justice are not one and the same. The former can be twisted to violate the latter.

 

Whether a Daedric Prince's purview is "good" or "evil" is entirely a matter of context. Some are definitely harder to contextualize as "good" than others (can anyone even think of a case where Molag Bal's purview is a good thing?), but in the case of Boethiah... yes, "unlawful overthrow of authority" is a good thing in the right context. Boethiah gave lie to the Aldmeri twisting of Ancestor Worship when he showed how Trinimac's followers were made unto pariahs when they were orc-ified after Boethaih shat Trinimac back out as Malacath.

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

Everything you said is true, but the issue here is that when you look at the other daedric princes, only some of them make it a point to say something along the lines of, "a prince not considered evil" and/or "considered good" while the rest do not.

 

Not only is Boethiah one of the few despite some obviously darker spheres (again, can't see any context in which it is good to kill someone who trusts you) but they are the only one listed as an ally to Temple of Stendarr.

 

Now, these are people we are talking about. People who hate daedra due to believing them all to be evil and or foul creatures. What legitimate context would they have to see Boethiah as not only being good, but so good that they ally with him?

 

Come to think of it, there is another kind of overthrow of authority. If the government overthrew a mob boss, it would very much be a lawful overthrow of authority. It would in fact be possible only due to the law in that particular case. And we're only focusing on one very small aspect of this daedric prince. They aren't only about overthrowing authority whether that authority is fair/just or not. They are also about treachery of the deepest kind. Loving when a close friend kills another.

 

How does the Temple of Stendarr take no issue with this, but hate another Daedric Prince whose sphere is life energies and hates the undead because they disrupt the balance?

[DoctorKaizeld]

 

Now, these are people we are talking about. People who hate daedra due to believing them all to be evil and or foul creatures. What legitimate context would they have to see Boethiah as not only being good, but so good that they ally with him?

i think you're missing the point, they arent saying he's good (unless you're the Dunmer) they are saying he is a necessary evil that is needed to keep kings good.

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

I don't think that is the definition of allying yourself with anyone or thing. If you fight for good and believe daedra evil to the point where you fight them, it is questionable that one would have any mindset that would allow them to ally with any Daedric Prince let alone one like Boethiah.

 

Why would they ally with something they don't see as good? I mean these same people, in theory, would attack the Companions if they knew they were werewolves.

 

They say things like this:

 

"...They are profane creatures with no hope of redemption. They lure innocents to their deaths and corrupt the souls of all they touch..."

 

Boethiah is basically a personification of the underlined portion of that quote.

 

But I don't think what you are saying is allying. What you describe is acceptance (in my opinion), and still, it would be odd to me that they would accept this daedric prince (one who definitely causes evil, will support them being overthrown and the overthrowing of the most just of rulers, and truly isn't necessary as I'm sure people can and do overthrow others without Boethiah) as necessary but not any of the others.