Meltdown - This game is just F'n lazy!

[Belthan]

I've been trying to stay positive and reply constructively to specific thoughts, but a few posts back someone mentioned Obsidian in a way that seemed to view their work favorably compared to Bethsoft. Which is verging on giving me a meltdown. Modding FNV was a screaming, hair-pulling, rage-inducing nightmare - the FNV GECK (and in some ways the game itself) made FO3 look positively stable and robust by comparison. Prime example: they disabled script compiler errors because, you know, why be bothered with warnings about things you don't intend to fix? You want to talk about lazy? That's effing lazy! I know some people have blamed those issues on Bethsoft for putting Obsidian under such intense schedule pressure, but the only reason I stuck with modding FNV as long as I did was because of the enthusiastic fan response to Coito Ergo Sum.

 

Whew... with that off my shoulders, I'll try to regain my positive attitude. So, almost anything game developers can screw up, modders can fix. Case in point, the FNV GECK Powerup, which restored compiler errors and fixed most of the bugs with the FNV GECK, and made modding FNV tolerable. So, anyplace you see a problem, try to see an opportunity instead.

[Guest deleted2588518]

I've been trying to stay positive and reply constructively to specific thoughts, but a few posts back someone mentioned Obsidian in a way that seemed to view their work favorably compared to Bethsoft. Which is verging on giving me a meltdown. Modding FNV was a screaming, hair-pulling, rage-inducing nightmare - the FNV GECK (and in some ways the game itself) made FO3 look positively stable and robust by comparison. Prime example: they disabled script compiler errors because, you know, why be bothered with warnings about things you don't intend to fix? You want to talk about lazy? That's effing lazy! I know some people have blamed those issues on Bethsoft for putting Obsidian under such intense schedule pressure, but the only reason I stuck with modding FNV as long as I did was because of the enthusiastic fan response to Coito Ergo Sum.

 

Whew... with that off my shoulders, I'll try to regain my positive attitude. So, almost anything game developers can screw up, modders can fix. Case in point, the FNV GECK Powerup, which restored compiler errors and fixed most of the bugs with the FNV GECK, and made modding FNV tolerable. So, anyplace you see a problem, try to see an opportunity instead.

 

Ok, let me clarify what I meant by Obsidian being out of the loop and why I referenced them specifically.

 

FO3 was not a bad game. In comparison to New Vegas, FO3 did not have as much depth or enjoyable RPG elements. Obsidian didn't have the rights to build a new game from the ground up and were only given a very short time to produce a second game based on FO3, its engine and its game design. Was it a nightmare? Absolutely. But you have to remember that they were handed a hot mess and asked to make another game from it. To add insult to injury, it was an IP that some of those devs at Obsidian originally created when they were at Interplay. Some of the Devs from Black Isles (Now Obsidian) gave the game far better writing and a better playing experience. All confined to the original FO3 mechanics, engine and tools provided to them.

 

I'd say, all things considered, Obsidian did far more and far better things with the assets they were handed than BGS did in half the time.

 

If anything need be said about the abilities of Obsidian as a game developer, you need look no further than Pillars of Eternity. Everything about that game is fantastic. When they aren't bound by another game studios assets and tools, they can produce wonderful things. It isn't really fare to hold them down and beat them for how New Vegas worked internally. They really didn't have much options with the time frame they were given.

 

But enough kissing Obsidian's arse. They aren't perfect. Could they have made a better FO4 than Bethsoft? Absolutely without question.

[Ichthyic]

 

But what I found in the guts of Fallout 4 has left me with disgust and disdain.

My first day plowing through the data using FOEdit... this was my exact same response.

 

a lot of the code looks like unmodified rips from Skyrim... even didn't bother to change the value names from the fantasy nameset.

 

I've rarely seen such lazy coders as Beth has become over the last decade.

 

my guess, having been in the industry myself in the 90s, is that they are getting what they pay for.

 

 

 

you need look no further than Pillars of Eternity

well, having tried to mod THAT game as well, I'd have to say it was released in a VERY poor state.

 

I don't think I even finished it. I ran into such gamestopping bugs (not questwise, usually, but things like random multiplicative stat bumps, gear going missing, etc) that I finally gave up... and that was after the 4th or 5th patch!

 

I'm sure it's a bit more stable now, but my opinion of Obsidian's programming skills aren't that much better than my opinion of Beth's.

 

thank fuk I never even tried to mod New Vegas.

 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2015 by Sir_Toejam

[Guest deleted2588518]

Heh, I wasn't talking about modibility for Pillars. And I haven't found any bugs (missing equipment or quests) yet in almost 200 hours of game play.

I also haven't made any attempts to mod it either. I haven't personally found any reason to need or want to.

 

As for modding New Vegas, yea its a mess in there but I never had too much difficulty doing what I wanted with the structure. Maybe that's due to xEdit. I hardly ever used the GECK for NV outside of cell edits.

I didn't find modding NV any harder or more of a mess than trying to mod FO3. But I will agree that the structure is chaotic. At any rate, I'm not trying to compare FO4 directly to FONV on the backend. I was referencing Obsidian for their ability to add depth to the game.

 

But Sir TJ hammered home the real issue. FO4 feels like a Skyrim total conversion Fallout mod. The depths of lazy are mind-boggling. They did not take four years to make this game. It may have taken four years to get all the voice acting and artwork done, but the game itself and its structure were slapped together in a very rushed and short period of time. Couple that with the near lifeless Boston outside of the main quest... I'd say this only took them about 6 months IF THAT to complete once all the voice work and art assets were finished.

 

All the quests, dialogue and even the map reflect this being rushed. Half baked farmville-esque, Nameless NPCs tending crops settlement system...

They used the "tower to find more locations" cliche that plagues Console sand-box games instead of anything else... (this needs to go away)

They Aped Bioware for their dialogue system without actually knowing how to do that. IDK why they didn't stick to their own system when it worked perfectly well. Unless the devs had a super hard-on for Mass Effect and wanted to clone it, OR Bethesda's marketing department said "You know how Mass Effect sold all those copies? If we make FO4 look like Mass Effect, it would sell better." Which is insane to contemplate as both Fallout3 and New Vegas sold like hotcakes and even made GOTY EACH TIME. So I have no idea why they would break away from their previous methods.. It makes zero sense.

 

Anyways, I hate shitting on this game. I want to love this game and fix all its problems and put so many hours into it that Skyrim and New Vegas pale in comparison. FO4 being 64bit and having the potential for massive visual upgrades, it could easily look better than Witcher 3. (with 3rd party software. Creation Engine is choking really hard un-modded on ultra right now)

 

The new animations are far, far better than Skyrim and with the right modder they could be really amazing.

Once the Kit is out and we can import meshes without serious issues, Old School weapons would be a very welcomed mod. (the current ones aren't bad, but they are just too watered down)

 

I just want to see this game get better. Its just really upsetting to see this level of lazy on behalf of Bethesda when I know they could have done a much, MUCH better job.

[JimboUK]

We used to joke that The Elder Scrolls VI would have only two skills, "Fireball" and "Pointy Thing", little did we know that this was two more skills than the next Fallout title would get. I've been a fan of the franchise since the first game and it's really sad to see what Bethesda have to done to it, even EA wouldn't have dumbed it down this much. Go here "bang, bang, bang", go there, "bang, bang, bang", rinse and repeat. I'm not sure what modders can do if there nothing to build on, all you're doing is sprinkling glitter on a turd, you can keep piling that glitter on but at it's heart there'll still a lump of s#*!.

 

I'm not surprised at what you found under the hood, I haven't looked myself, I can barely bring myself to play it let alone care how it works, 40 hours and I'm done, 10 of them literally forcing myself to play, it's no New Vegas....

 

http://puu.sh/lIeYc/cff3e3a467.png

[Belthan]

a lot of the code looks like unmodified rips from Skyrim... even didn't bother to change the value names from the fantasy nameset.

FO4 feels like a Skyrim total conversion Fallout mod. The depths of lazy are mind-boggling.

To be fair, code reuse is a common practice, and since stripping out and/or renaming legacy resources isn't visible to the user, it's typically viewed as a waste of time and money. After Microsoft spun off OS/2 to IBM and rebranded their own version as NT, it took them ten years to get all the OS/2 references out of the kernel. Not saying it isn't a symptom of laziness, just saying it's not the most egregious symptom :wink:

 

We used to joke that The Elder Scrolls VI would have only two skills, "Fireball" and "Pointy Thing"

 

LMAO!

 

Go here "bang, bang, bang", go there, "bang, bang, bang", rinse and repeat. I'm not sure what modders can do if there nothing to build on,

Rest assured, once the CK is available there will be mods which add NPCs with depth and quests with mysteries, dilemmas and consequences. (Shameless self-promotion alert: Vidi, Vici, Veni Teaser)