kimmera

That particular Legate talked to a lot of people, though. You are saying they all gave exactly the same information? And that despite Ulfric somehow knowing the truth just by looking, said Legate was not able to see just by looking that everyone they talked to was lying? Meanwhile, Ulfric could also be making everything up. Or might be making nothing up in that Ulfric doesn't actually have any dialogue regarding the Empire's troop strength, current or at the end of the war. You are the one putting words in Ulfric's mouth that he may or may not believe. Saying that the Empire should have continued to fight doesn't say anything about his knowledge or lack thereof as to the Empire's ability to do so. Like you, he may have just making blind assumptions. You know if the AD were going to betray the Empire, given the Empire's situation immediately after the battle, time to regroup given by the treaty would have been a good thing. Signing a treaty is not the same thing as dropping one's guard. "Wanting Cyrodiil to suffer less than the other provinces" sounds like you think the Empire wanted the other provinces to suffer. Cyrodiil, like Hammerfell was hit directly. Skyrim was not hit other than at the end by the Talos worship ban, and the evidence is that was not aggressively policed until after the Markarth Incident. The Talos restriction might have weakened the Empire metaphysically (but frankly not so badly that there couldn't be another game in the franchise), but otherwise the Empire was only giving up ground it didn't hold at the time of the treaty signing. Why the hell would the AD agree to give captured land back without a fight? Look, we really are just going in circles here. You just keep saying the same things, dismissing any evidence from the Empire, and making up unsubstantiated 'facts' you claim Ulfric 'knows.'

That was the whole point of negotiating then. In re-taking Imperial City, the Empire gave an illusion of strength. If they had tried to fight on beyond that, their lack of remaining troop strength would have been revealed, and the AD would have had an opportunity to demand more or take over completely. Continuing to fight would only have worked if the AD were likewise completely out of troops, but since they had enough to garrison Solitude, which wasn't even contested ground, it seems safe to assume that they still had reserves to draw upon. Moreover, they still had full supply since the fighting never touched their soil.

Neither side knew the other's troop strengths with certainty at the start of the war, and yes, if the terms had been accepted without a fight, there would have been widespread rebellion. Fighting the war means they at least tried. And the Thalmor purges didn't start until after the Markarth Incident where Ulfric tried to blackmail the Empire into allowing open Talos worship and thus waving a 'we're still here' flag over every Talos worshiper for the Thalmor to see. By the way, if the rebellion happened without a war, then they would have been even weaker against the AD, if the AD subsequently invaded after all. In that situation, they would likely have simply lost everything. The AD would wait until the civil wars had killed as many Imperial, Skyrim and Redguard troops as possible, and then stepped in to mop up.

So the Generals were spouting PR lines to a Legate investigating the situation internally? And the interrogation documents and line soldiers interviewed, everyone else interviewed just fell into line with this grand conspiracy? Meanwhile, you insist that noble Ulfric, savior of us all has no biases whatsoever, has a perfectly clear mind with no personal agenda other than altruism, and (even though Ulfric never disputes The Great War in game) sees the situation clearly, backing you up silently. Again, this is 'The proof Ulfric is right is that if he is wrong he is very wrong and since he can't be that wrong, he must be right, and all other evidence must be wrong.' Turn your second point around. If TMII was as surrender-happy as you claim, why re-take IC? If he was going to just give up, why not simply do so when the capital was taken ala France? Re-taking the capital was proof that he was willing to fight as long as he felt he still could. And there is NO evidence of any AD demands or peace offers while they held the White Gold Tower. You are pulling that out of your butt, one more thing to add to the list of evidence you make up out of nowhere. You really don't get it. Cyrodiil is an EXPORTER of food. Other provinces DEPEND ON CYRODIIL for food. Cyrodiil falling doesn't mean those regions (which include Skyrim) would suddenly have surplus crop production out of nowhere. To the contrary, they would have starvation due to reduced food shipments from Cyrodiil. Again, this isn't Civ. It isn't a uniform world where every region is completely self sufficient. It is a relatively realistic world with relatively realistic trade and supply. It isn't just the troops that have to be fed. The Legate didn't just interview generals. And was wounded in battle so would have seen first hand the casualty situation.

If you play up the RL source material, the Empire would threaten to pull their charter (and thus their monopoly), or possibly just play the patriotism card (the Empire might realize they are in too dire a situation to threaten). Meanwhile Ulfric could threaten directly (since he controls Windhelm's ports) and/or make promises based on his winning. Lots of potential there.

A-N-Z-I-O. And the only thing that mad Italy any easier going was that the Germans had bigger fish to fry in France after D-Day. LOTS of casualties for no significant gain. At best, the Italian campaign required 2.5+-to-1 manpower, and the casualties inflicted versus casualties sustained was practically an Even Exchange. <chuckles> We are getting off topic here again, but every German soldier in Italy was one fewer on the other fronts.

A point of evidence on the side of neutrality is that they don't get mentioned as an asset from the Imperial side of the war. If they were really Empire affiliated, why wouldn't a second wave of troops be brought in by water? (The fact that they aren't part of the civil war, frankly, is likely just a cost issue on the part of the Devs. It *would* have a lot of good mod potential though, definitely, with them playing either side, both, or possibly fighting to stay neutral with both sides demanding their aid)

In the middle of a civil war, it makes no sense that he would rely on pirates. More likely he either doesn't see any connection between the EEC and the Empire or he is simply an opportunist and sees their trade as more valuable than the risks. Or both.

If Ulfric had a problem with the East Empire company (whether due to connection with the Empire real or perceived or even some other reason) wouldn't he have shut them out of Windhelm? Seized their assets? Even if there is a connection, Ulfric may not even be aware of it. Again, there is nothing currently telling us who the owner at the top is...

Meh. He was still responsible for the stagnation in Italy. He was so married to the phrase "soft underbelly of Europe", he eventually convinced the Allies to go ahead with the invasion. Proved to be anything but soft. It turned out to be almost like Gallipoli on steroids. Probably the biggest Allied boondoggle of the war. Italy couldn't really be completely ignored though and although it was tough slogging once ashore, the beach landings were considerably easier than Normandy.

There are quests for Kyne and Kynareth as well. Not sure why you didn't find the Kynareth quest since it starts in Whiterun via the temple there. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Divine_Quests Also not sure that I would call Sheogorath 'lame.' He might pluck out your eyes and use them as marbles.... thus you'd lose your sight and your marbles at the same time.... :)

This is definitely the right place :) There doesn't seem to be any good information as to who owns it, but since it is obviously a take on the Dutch East India Company and/or British East India Company, it is almost certainly a privately owned operation, possibly granted a trade monopoly by an Imperial charter. While it would make sense for them to be pressed into military service there is no evidence of any such measures. Based on Morrowwind they are likely often seen as having a stronger connection than necessarily exists. Hard to tell though since there are no details regarding ownership. Maybe they really are literally a branch of the Imperial government.

You do know that there are mods that let you become a dragon separately from Dragonborn, right?

An Imperial Captain does not represent the Empire to that level, especially in a hostage situation. It would be like a bank robber demanding an end to Obamacare and the police captain agreeing to that demand in order to end the hostage situation, then the robber being shocked or crying foul when the deal isn't honored. If the High King gave permission, then why wouldn't Ulfric use that fact politically? That would have been of major relevance to the civil war and would have strengthened Ulfric's position considerably.

Elimc, you again are ignoring the intro to The Great War. That Legate went out of his way to learn everything he could about the situation, to go beyond what he could personally see, interviewing other commanders, reviewing documents, etc. He also was high enough ranking to view interrogation documents. There is no evidence that Ulfric did anything similar, and it is unlikely that Ulfric held similar rank, particularly since there is no evidence that Ulfric had been anything other than a militia commander, i.e. not regular Imperial Army. (and again the evidence for that is that he was just a militia commander during the Markarth Incident, otherwise the 'unavailability of Imperial troops to handle the situation' would have made no sense. Argh, AGAIN THE AD WERE NOT TRYING TO CONQUER CYRODIIL. That was NEVER an AD demand. Holding land is much harder than merely defeating it. There are numerous quotes in Skyrim regarding food and supplies coming from Cyrodiil. There are tiny farms in rocky, cold, far from ideal terrain, compared to Cyrodiil's considerable green spaces. There aren't even any lines about Skyrim losing Imperial markets, i.e. nothing about any Skyrim exports. Supply becomes problematic if you no longer have sufficient troops to guard supply lines, if supply wagons are destroyed, if fields are salted, etc. They needed every man they had to re-take the tower, and did so relatively quickly, so yes, it is quite possible they 'suddenly can't.' Furthermore it isn't necessarily 'suddenly.' Their situation was likely growing worse all the time over the course of the war. THIS WAR WAS 100% ON IMPERIAL SOIL. You really don't seem to understand what that means. Even if the AD didn't salt a single field, it means the AD were using up what would normally be Imperial supply. That means not just a lack of supply for the Imperial army, but also for the Imperial population. As Napoleon is credited with once having said 'An army moves on it's stomach.' That includes the AD army. Again your point regarding the legate might be correct UNLESS THE LEGATE WAS ACTUALLY AT THE BATTLE (which is also confirmed in the introduction) AND ACTIVELY INVESTIGATED THE SITUATION (which again, they did). Seriously, it keeps feeling like you haven't actually read the source material. Don't you go back and re-reference at all? I pity you if you ever go to university and have to write any research paper at all. In fact, frankly, the lack of homework you do despite the effort put in to this discussion likely explain why you are sympathetic to Ulric. Both you and Ulfric seem to just assume facts rather than making any effort to actually determine facts. You have a similar style. Don't get me wrong.... there is a place in the world for that. Trying to learn all relevant facts takes time and resources and is not always viable, and people like me often lose out on opportunities from being overly cautious. Churchill showed how disastrous your kind of approach can be via Gallipoli, but then later how valuable it can be during World War II. He had generals (domestic and foreign) to lean on with respect to guiding the actual war effort during the latter though.

Sort of fly. It isn't completely fere flight there either....

It is an obvious Thalmor plot!

I am not sure you understand the concept. This wasn't even an open field situation. Even if Ulfric and Galmar were there, they would not have been able to see more than their own unit most of the time. They wouldn't know the supply situation, and they might have delusions about how quickly legions could be rebuilt or supplied. They just saw a huge number of troops brought to IC for the battle and might assume that Empire could do that again. If the AD can step in and wipe out the Empire any time they want then NO CHOICE WORKS. A pre-emptive strike against a superior foe does not make that foe suddenly crumple for no reason. The only situation in which Ulfric's choice works is if the AD are so weak that they would surrender just from a bluff. There is zero evidence of that. You seem to assume that even though the Empire's forces are obviously re-deployable (Decianus being the obvious example) that the AD can re-deploy too, and likely did when Hammerfell seemed to be folding and Cyrodiil seemed similarly weak. Decianus had temporary success when the AD withdrew troops to concentrate on Cyrodiil, and that continued somewhat after Decianus withdrew after IC was captured. Then the battle of the red ring happened, and the vast majority of the Empire's forces were gone. Supply would be problematic. Feeding armies is not easy, and the Empire normally supplies Skyrim, not the other way around. Even to the extent Ulfric could see and assess remaining troop strengths, he had no experience with Imperial supply lines, the Imperial production situation, no way of being able to determine the strategic end of things other than just looking at the surface. Unlike the Legate, there is no evidence of Ulfric having done anything other than being there... maybe. He did not have the superior level of information.

My counter to this is that Ulfric is the one breaking away and forcing a civil war. The Dragonborn can force a truce, or can side with either side and break the impass for a more definitive result.

We don't really have a clear timeline though, so we don't know if Igmund even sent word to Solitude. Even if there were no Imperial troops available though, wouldn't Ulfric be under the command of the High King? And if Istlod ruled that Markarth was undeserving of aid, was Ulfric effectively disobeying that ruling? Conversely, wasn't Ulfric not just refusing the Empire's WGC but also Istlod, who had accepted it too? Do we know any details of Istlod's death? Maybe he was just too old to make decisions? Or maybe Ulfric fast talked his deal before word got back from Solitude? No one talks ill of Istlod, not even Ulfric. One would think that a High King denying help to Markarth would have been at least as noteworthy as the WGC itself....

According to the lore, it seems like Ulfric made a deal with Igmund, new jarl of Markarth and later with the Imperial Legion who showed up to relieve them. There is talk about this meaning that the Empire had agreed to this (despite the Imperial Captain having no such authority to make such deals), but what of the High King? Shouldn't he have been consulted on a matter involving a foreign treaty? And was it Torygg on the throne at the time or was it still Istlod? It is unclear exactly when and how Istlod died.....

Elimc, We don't even know if Ulfric was there at the end. All we know is that Galmar (and maybe Ulfric) were there for the treaty signing. On the other hand the Legate who wrote The Great War claims he was there, wounded in battle but survived. And while he admits his book contains some speculation, he actively interviewed people, read documents, etc, indicating not only that he made an active effort to piece together the truth, but was well positioned enough to have access to such information, commanders, etc. What you don't understand about the possibility of AD reserves is that both you and Ulfric are simply assuming there were none, in other words, assuming that the best possible situation applies. You make no allowances for the possibility of being wrong, nor any acknowledgement of the consequences of being wrong. The Empire was in better position when Skyrim tried to leave. For one thing, it is easier to get troops into Skyrim. For another, the Empire had had a few years to recover. And additionally, half the Jarls still supported the Empire. And you are obviously completely right. The troops Decianus arrived with were obviously weak and completely inconsequential. The Emperor was obviously so incompetent that he accepted his general having brought only an irrelevant handfull of troops back, and even though that would have meant Decianus was essentially telling TMII that the Imperial forces in Hammerfell were completely decimated, the Emperor should have realized how powerful wounded, crippled elderly Imperial soldiers are, and should have refused the WGC on the grounds of how powerful those few such individuals were, despite them being less powerful than the completely inconsequential troops Decianus did bring with him. You really aren't very good with logic, are you, Elimc? Edit: and the deal was made with the Jarl of Markarth, maybe with an Imperial advisor present. It is not clear if the Emperor knew about it at all when it was made. Nor is there any evidence Torygg was involved in the deal, despite his being High King. Frankly, since Skyrim was still part of the Empire, I'd think the official response would be to tell the Stormcloaks that Skyrim is still part of the Empire, and their obedience is expected, and failing that, that even if Ulfric does not agree with the WGC, the Reachmen aren't Talos worshipers either, so Skyrim is even worse off losing Markarth than Ulfric thinks it is under the Empire.

Elimc, you are again assuming that Ulfric's assessments were correct, and using that assumption as proof that Ulfric's assumptions were correct. And all the stalemate in Hammerfell proves is that the AD didn't commit enough forces to do more than hold the line against Hammerfell. That is not the same thing as not having sufficient forces to do more. Right now, numerous countries are bombing ISIS positions. They obviously have considerable ground troops they could commit if they decided to do so, but so far, they have stuck to committing air power and a handful of advisers. The military strength of the nations involved cannot be judged solely on what is committed in Iraq and Syria. A treaty is not the same thing as a surrender. Peace, even with concessions, is not the same thing as being conquered.

Elimc, why do you assume that Decanius only commanded one legion? He was ordered to bring 'all Imperial troops' in the region. And they barely won the Battle of the Red Ring. Every soldier mattered. Germany hadn't lost WWI until it surrendered, but ended up with the Treaty of Versailles anyway. Germany hadn't lost WWII until it surrendered, and ended up with the country divided and under foreign control for decades. France surrendered but did NOT lose the war, by way of many of its troops fighting on with the help of foreign powers. You place a lot of weight on the term 'surrendered' which equates to 'omg they hurt our pride.' You have no strategy other than fight. The Empire's condition after the Battle of the Red Ring isn't really even disputed, other than perhaps by the forces in Hammerfell who were not in Cyrodiil so had no clue. Even Ulfric and Galmar only whine about the terms of the treaty. They don't make any comment about the legion strength.

As Captain Patch said, Hammerfell did not declare independence. More importantly, the Empire doesn't kill all Altmer on sight. SKYRIM does not kill all Altmer on sight. RACE DOES NOT EQUAL NATIONALITY. The troops that came with Decanius were from Hammerfell, but they were Imperial regulars. We know this from what was left behind. We don't know what would have happened in Hammerfell if Decanius had stayed back entirely, however the Battle of the Red Ring would likely have been lost or perhaps never happened, the Empire would have been pushed right back to Skyrim or perhaps surrendered unconditionally. If those troops had not returned to Cyrodiil, Cyrodiil would have been lost. There were no more troops immediately available from Skyrim, so Skyrim may well have been also lost. And in such a case, the AD would have reduced the situation to a one front war, and Hammerfell might have found a lot less success. It isn't that you disagree, it is the degree to which you seem to just make statements out of nowhere, and any time lore contracts you, you say it doesn't count. Despite that you are happy to use any lore you think supports you. You are not arguing in good faith.